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antic604 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:55 pmSorry to break it to you, but for the more rhythmical EDM genres - like psytrance - using oscilloscope to match / tune kick & bass is a pretty standard technique, so it's not "bullshit".
What, your ears can't tell you when something is in or out of tune? Again, if you need an oscilloscope, then you are talking about differences that don't matter.
Digivolt wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:57 pmEvery channel has at least a ProQ3 and Mvmeter on, so it's quite easy to get 200 plugs (this includes the synths) on a 62 track song
What I see here is your assumption that every channel NEEDS an EQ and a meter. I used to EQ the krap out of everything but these days I hardly EQ anything, except acoustic stuff, like vocals and drums, that are hard to manipulate any other way.

With synth parts, I prefer to to use the on-board tools, especially the filters, to get the frequency spectrum I want. A little tweak to the resonant peak can help a part sit in a mix at least as well as EQ. And given that your mixer has functionally infinite headroom, you don't need metering at all, so the channel strips own meter is more than adequate.

I'd have to put 20 effects on every channel to get my effect count to 200. Maybe it's because I spent so much time in 16 channel studios but I honestly don't know if I could get a good mix with more than about that number of tracks/channels. All my best sounding songs use less than 10.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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BONES wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:57 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:55 pmSorry to break it to you, but for the more rhythmical EDM genres - like psytrance - using oscilloscope to match / tune kick & bass is a pretty standard technique, so it's not "bullshit".
What, your ears can't tell you when something is in or out of tune? Again, if you need an oscilloscope, then you are talking about differences that don't matter.
Layering the kick and the bass in psytrance really matters and using tools like these can make the process much faster to get a cleaner tighter sound as these 2 elements are a key part in the genre.

If I get the sound good I should be able to listen to it for a really long time without issue
If it isn't right then it has something off about it and makes it tiring to listen to.

In mean, usually I'll be listening to the kick and the bass for a long time and many times and if won't I'll be more sitting there again fixing for a while

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Okay odd, I was able to replicate the issue in Bitwig
Something with these drum machines don't work quite right that when I put them into separate sampler tracks the issues are gone.
Also figured out how to work the sidechain inputs on Occularscope which is better than the other one I was using and the bass wasnt even hitting on time which is odd because it sounded like it did

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Did you try a smaller buffer size. 512 is too big these days for composition. Unless your cpu is very weak, I suggest 128 or 64 even.

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BONES wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:57 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:55 pmSorry to break it to you, but for the more rhythmical EDM genres - like psytrance - using oscilloscope to match / tune kick & bass is a pretty standard technique, so it's not "bullshit".
What, your ears can't tell you when something is in or out of tune? Again, if you need an oscilloscope, then you are talking about differences that don't matter.
Uhm... Two sounds can be in tune, but can be off-phase. Which is why one would use oscilloscope in this particular case, to make sure you're not getting any cancellation especially in low-end, because then that creates instability in the "pulse" that is supposed to drive the track together.
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My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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BONES wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:57 pm
antic604 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:55 pmSorry to break it to you, but for the more rhythmical EDM genres - like psytrance - using oscilloscope to match / tune kick & bass is a pretty standard technique, so it's not "bullshit".
What, your ears can't tell you when something is in or out of tune? Again, if you need an oscilloscope, then you are talking about differences that don't matter.
It's not about actual tune (i.e. pitch discernible by ear) but about phase correlation at the point where the kick and the bass overlap. Sure, untimately you go for what sounds best, but oscilloscope visualising the kick/bass sum does help to identify a good starting point.

I think this technique is most relevant to typical psytrance "dugga-dugga" style bassline.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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EnGee wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 am Did you try a smaller buffer size. 512 is too big these days for composition. Unless your cpu is very weak, I suggest 128 or 64 even.
I mean sure I could try it out but I don't see how it would really help and would only have potential issues with clicks and pops.

But here's the thing, my desktop might be a power house but my laptop is really iffy on performance which is what I like using more due to my streamlined approach to how the stuff was installed

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MuzikFreq wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:18 pm
EnGee wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 am Did you try a smaller buffer size. 512 is too big these days for composition. Unless your cpu is very weak, I suggest 128 or 64 even.
I mean sure I could try it out but I don't see how it would really help and would only have potential issues with clicks and pops.

But here's the thing, my desktop might be a power house but my laptop is really iffy on performance which is what I like using more due to my streamlined approach to how the stuff was installed
I see. Have you tried another DAWs "drum machine"? Like Live's Drums Rack? Also, if you change the samples, do you experience the same?

Personally, I don't have "obvious" problem with timing or phasing in any DAW I'm using now (although I did had midi timing problem with S1 and Bitwig in the past). My problem now, is finding the best workflow (including the integration with hardware) and also the most stable DAW in basic and essential features.

Bitwig has a horrible integration after I update to the latest one (3.3.7). Things just was so messy and my sliders and knobs didn't work on the keylab (it worked fine before!). While S1 is so and so. It is good but not perfect. Changing to Cubase and Live, wow! the hardware worked with all controllers (sliders, knobs, all the buttons) in addition that they have the best midi and they seem more stable than others overall. But I'm keep testing all four to choose my final one (or two). Maybe you should do the same till you find the optimum DAW for your needs.

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EnGee wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:48 pm
MuzikFreq wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:18 pm
EnGee wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 am Did you try a smaller buffer size. 512 is too big these days for composition. Unless your cpu is very weak, I suggest 128 or 64 even.
I mean sure I could try it out but I don't see how it would really help and would only have potential issues with clicks and pops.

But here's the thing, my desktop might be a power house but my laptop is really iffy on performance which is what I like using more due to my streamlined approach to how the stuff was installed
I see. Have you tried another DAWs "drum machine"? Like Live's Drums Rack? Also, if you change the samples, do you experience the same?

Personally, I don't have "obvious" problem with timing or phasing in any DAW I'm using now (although I did had midi timing problem with S1 and Bitwig in the past). My problem now, is finding the best workflow (including the integration with hardware) and also the most stable DAW in basic and essential features.

Bitwig has a horrible integration after I update to the latest one (3.3.7). Things just was so messy and my sliders and knobs didn't work on the keylab (it worked fine before!). While S1 is so and so. It is good but not perfect. Changing to Cubase and Live, wow! the hardware worked with all controllers (sliders, knobs, all the buttons) in addition that they have the best midi and they seem more stable than others overall. But I'm keep testing all four to choose my final one (or two). Maybe you should do the same till you find the optimum DAW for your needs.
It's what I did. Came down to bitwig due to how I can manipulate parameters and having full control and has the same great layout I liked on my laptop as what ableton gave. Also no need to buy suite for the m4l functions. Also wasapi audio so I don't really need an interface for my laptop.

Ableton was close but had cpu issues and just felt lacking for what I wanted that bitwig had natively.

FL Studio I have but I can't stand the way it handles many aspects like routing, mixer/arranger/rack naming and colors and had to do it 3 times for consistency.

Cubase.... Nope, too much bloatware when I last tried it

Reaper is great but didn't play correctly with some of my most used plugins, most notably lfotool
(Then again kickstart might work)

Reason I love and hate haha.
It's missing some of the most basics of basics but kinda makes up for it in strange ways.
Though I wish bat support was better and had more in and out sources and a proper cv to midi input. And better handling of automation.
Also wish I could change the order of the screens so the arranger and mixer are swapped.

Studio one has a bunch of great features and I see potential but it feels kind of off in a way and some things I wish I didn't need to dig through key board shortcuts to find a command like inserting a pattern clip being ctrl+shift+p
There's other things but I won't go into

So in the end I decided to really have bitwig and reason
I am still renting to own studio one5 as I need with it and see great hardware support moreso than bitwig and way more than reason.
Though in a funny trade off, bitwig has the best support for maschine jam which I do have.

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Pretty cool email today with a free copy of Mastering the Mix Bassroom

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Digivolt wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:40 pm Pretty cool email today with a free copy of Mastering the Mix Bassroom
Yeah it’s been DAW giveaway day today. Got Bassroom from this and some decent sampled EP instruments from Bitwig.

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MuzikFreq wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 pm
Studio one has a bunch of great features and I see potential but it feels kind of off in a way and some things I wish I didn't need to dig through key board shortcuts to find a command like inserting a pattern clip being ctrl+shift+p
.
Hold Alt and double click left mouse button is easier.
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MuzikFreq wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 pmStudio one has a bunch of great features and I see potential but it feels kind of off in a way and some things I wish I didn't need to dig through key board shortcuts to find a command like inserting a pattern clip being ctrl+shift+p
There's other things but I won't go into

So in the end I decided to really have bitwig and reason
You can't possibly be suggesting that Bitwig and Reason aren't exactly the same in this regard? I certainly had an order of magnitude less hassle getting my head around Studio One than I did Bitwig. In just a few weeks I was doing more with it than I could manage after several months with Bitwig. DAWs are very complex, very capable applications that all have steep learning curves but, of the three I have bought since we decided to leave Orion behind - Bitwig, Cubase and Studio One - S1 was far and away the easiest to learn, the application with which I am most comfortable and, therefore, most productive.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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BONES wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:53 am
MuzikFreq wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:46 pmStudio one has a bunch of great features and I see potential but it feels kind of off in a way and some things I wish I didn't need to dig through key board shortcuts to find a command like inserting a pattern clip being ctrl+shift+p
There's other things but I won't go into

So in the end I decided to really have bitwig and reason
You can't possibly be suggesting that Bitwig and Reason aren't exactly the same in this regard? I certainly had an order of magnitude less hassle getting my head around Studio One than I did Bitwig. In just a few weeks I was doing more with it than I could manage after several months with Bitwig. DAWs are very complex, very capable applications that all have steep learning curves but, of the three I have bought since we decided to leave Orion behind - Bitwig, Cubase and Studio One - S1 was far and away the easiest to learn, the application with which I am most comfortable and, therefore, most productive.
Different strokes for different folks

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Very helpful, that insightful comment really moves the discussion forward.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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