Vb chords?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
KVRer
8 posts since 6 Apr, 2021

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:14 pm

Vb chords? Can't find information of them, since I don't know what they're properly called. For example, in C major, it would be Gb, Bb, and Db.

What way are there (besides using the neapolitan scale) to integrate this chord into a key?

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:50 pm

The second question lives in the realm of musical ideas. There's quite a plethora of things that may be said in regards to it, but you aren't likely to grok all that much until you have a solid grounding; you need an internalized ready grasp of what keys chords built on those roots belong to for starters. And get experience with actual music and make observations/take notes.

KVRer

Topic Starter

8 posts since 6 Apr, 2021

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:02 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:50 pm
The second question lives in the realm of musical ideas. There's quite a plethora of things that may be said in regards to it, but you aren't likely to grok all that much until you have a solid grounding; you need an internalized ready grasp of what keys chords built on those roots belong to for starters. And get experience with actual music and make observations/take notes.
Well, if anyone can think of examples where it's used, in a diatonic context or older classical music, that would be of great service. Seeing that I'm not sure if there's a wikipedia article on it.

KVRer

Topic Starter

8 posts since 6 Apr, 2021

Post Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:03 pm

I mean examples which are not modulations and are not neapolitan.

KVRer
15 posts since 19 Sep, 2015

Post Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:28 pm

It is a regular chord, in the major scale it is a chromatic chord (the regular is "diatonic").
It is called the minor dominant. It is therefore not "V" but "v", or not "D" but "d".

B-flat major chord is in C major: low mediant of dominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.

D-flat major chord is in C major: low submediant of subdominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.
Last edited by 8-echos on Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

KVRer
16 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:04 pm

It can be a passing chord from V to IV.

If you want Jazz, bV7 (dominant) calls for the real melodic minor on bII - b2, b3, 3 (b4), b5, b6, b7, 1

KVRian
737 posts since 18 Apr, 2011

Post Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:15 pm

Do you mean a bV chord?

If you are, I can think of a couple of things, but neither of them would be labeled bV

For one it could just be chromatic planing.

Or it could be a tritone sub for the V/IV.

KVRer
15 posts since 19 Sep, 2015

Post Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:31 am

Maybe the person wanted G-flat major chord (Gb-Bb-Db). In that case it is called the Polar chord ("P" if major, "p" if minor). It has a semi-subdominant function.
That chord was used, as an example, in Dvorak's 9 Symphony, here at 9:27 , G-major chord in D-flat key.
https://youtu.be/dzn3shthq0w?t=567

KVRer

Topic Starter

8 posts since 6 Apr, 2021

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:34 am

8-echos wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:28 pm
It is a regular chord, in the major scale it is a chromatic chord (the regular is "diatonic").
It is called the minor dominant. It is therefore not "V" but "v", or not "D" but "d".

B-flat major chord is in C major: low mediant of dominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.

D-flat major chord is in C major: low submediant of subdominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I discovered an example myself, in the first few bars of Beethoven's sonata no. 32, C Minor (Op. 111). However, the sonata is so full of 7th diminished chords that it's challenging for me to analyze its function, unless I'm mistaking it for the secondary dominant (which is major, not minor, though...?)

@stillshaded. No, it's not to be confused with the bV chord. By "Vb" I meant degree V flat (major), but I didn't know what else to call it.
Last edited by Palestr1na on Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:21 am

8-echos wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:28 pm
It is a regular chord, in the major scale it is a chromatic chord (the regular is "diatonic").
It is called the minor dominant. It is therefore not "V" but "v", or not "D" but "d".

B-flat major chord is in C major: low mediant of dominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.

D-flat major chord is in C major: low submediant of subdominant. It is also a chromatic chord, not diatonic.
No one writes a flat sign to indicate minor, that's a confusion of terms. Only one part is 'flatted' w no indication which.
"Vb" I have never seen. The flat sign modifies V or any other sign it applies to; in the English language anyway the modifier is placed before what it modifies.

Bb as to C major is also IV of IV, a double plagal cadence (you see this in gospel and gospel-derived music). It would be said to belong to IV in this usage as far as that goes but there's nothing problematic about a secondary subdominant, albeit I don't see this taught a lot.
There is no absolute consensus that this kind of deviation* should be called chromaticism. I don't, not per se. C major to Bb major is I to bVII in Mixolydian. Probably that should be considered diatonic. Function is not universal, and I don't think terms from function work in modality.

Db as to C may be a Neapolitan Six, ie., F Ab Db, & is a subdominant harmony generally suggesting V or I as a goal.
I'm 50:50 here.

bV, if this is the meaning, between V and IV is certainly chromaticism.

*: Some actually even consider the functional minors to be non-diatonic. I don't think that's a useful construct.

KVRer
16 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:09 pm

Palestr1na wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:34 am
I discovered an example myself, in the first few bars of Beethoven's sonata no. 32, C Minor (Op. 111).
Do you mean this one?
Image

It's a IV6 to me. Definitely not in C minor at this moment.

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KVRAF
21318 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:11 pm

definitely the encircled harmony is iv6 of Bb minor; the harmony leading to it is indicative.
Retaining the (Bb) 4 in the i6/4 construction and cadence is a bit unusual, but the function exists in that trill on top, nb., the A leading tone and bam, iv

The probability of a real bV harmony during the CPP even in late Beethoven is pretty low. We might get a harmony like that in Schoenberg before the break, in pieces like Transfigured Night.
Very modulatory passage, but hear it and the fact of iv in Bb minor is very clear. If this is the example, I strongly recommend getting a better sense of the lay of the landscape before worrying about 'second year' or advanced stuff like a bV harmony.

KVRer
15 posts since 19 Sep, 2015

Post Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:10 am

As described above, the person asked what is chord with tones "Gb-Bb-Db" in C major. It is Polar chord. Very used in Dvorak and Brahms.

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