The Waves Update Plan scam

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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KVRAF
4911 posts since 23 Aug, 2014 from Boston/Cambridge

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:59 pm

Dumb. Stupid. Moronic.
Waves making waves :dog:

Banned
97 posts since 15 May, 2020

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:26 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:43 am
Waves Update Plan

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Waves is a great company if you buy plugins you're planning to keep and use. It's not so great if you plan to buy plugins on sale and over a year later, after your WUP expires, you plan to sell it for anything close to what you paid for it.
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

KVRer
23 posts since 7 May, 2020

Post Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:25 am

I experimented this with Waves first, but ANY plugin company that makes installation and authorizing an absolute garbage nightmare by having me install some crap software client that asks for endless permissions and installs and endless lists of files aside from the actual plugin and necessary content will NEVER get another cent from me. :(

KVRAF
2059 posts since 12 Nov, 2014

Post Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:06 am

zvenx wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:31 am
The thing with the Ozone example though is that you also got a whole heap of other stuff (features, improvements) from 8-9, not just OS compatibility.

I don't have any wavearts stuff, but a casual read didn't suggest it was a paid upgrade was it?
edit: but indeed it does seem that some DAWS are having issue and it is paid upgrade.

rsp
Yeah you do get those extra features, but you also pay for them too and the next year or so of maintenance.

Waves just charged you the maintenance cost which is between $10-30 per plugin or $240 at most. You don’t get new features, but you’re not paying for them either. You can however be certain that all their plugins are going to open in your older projects even though many plugins from other developers won’t. That kind of assurance is also worth something.

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KVRAF
10089 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:20 am

I open older projects all the time, and apart from Spire when they changed to 1.1, and like 15 year old NI stuff long since abandoned and no longer on my current machine, I haven't had that issue..
and like I said, I don't have any other plugin developer that charges just for updates without new features.


rsp
sound sculptist

KVRist
35 posts since 25 Jun, 2020

Post Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:33 am

zvenx wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:20 am
I open older projects all the time, and apart from Spire when they changed to 1.1, and like 15 year old NI stuff long since abandoned and no longer on my current machine, I haven't had that issue..
and like I said, I don't have any other plugin developer that charges just for updates without new features.


rsp
Right, but Waves has a very very extensive amount of plugins, with every update, every new host application, every new operating system or computer hardware that comes out, they need to make sure that it runs properly, that major bugs are resolved, that every configuration, every knob and every function of each plugin works and fix issues along the way while other software manufacturer's in the audio-plugins business have significantly fewer products.

All things considered, plus the fact that you get some great tech support if you need it, I think it's a fair trade. If they would have forced you to renew the coverage, I'd be pissed too but you're not forced to do it at any point. However, if you move on to a new OS/DAW or anything like it, it's only fair to ask for payment so they can make sure everything is working. This is just my two cents. :ud:

KVRer
14 posts since 13 Sep, 2013 from Sayville

Post Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:58 pm

Glad I'm only using 2 of the 13 I bought with their "sales." I bought a bunch of those mixing packages, which I end up replacing with my other stuff. Only using Waves Tune Real Time and Reel ADT at this point, and I'm wondering are there any companies with comparable gear? I don't want to update this stuff ever again. I wonder if I may have accidentally updated to their version that purposefully doesn't work with this version of OS?
I'd rather take a beating than paint.

KVRAF
20690 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:46 am

zvenx wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:20 am
I open older projects all the time, and apart from Spire when they changed to 1.1, and like 15 year old NI stuff long since abandoned and no longer on my current machine, I haven't had that issue..
Okay?

Well, I certainly have had that problem a lot - especially after switching to 64bit. It's almost impossible to think of another company (besides Waves) which has been around for so long and never abandoned stuff. And many companies from back then don't even exist anymore. So don't believe for a second that your experience regarding this is the norm. If you want to be on the safe side it's best to exclusively use Waves plugins and WUP whenever neccessary. (So far hasn't been for me.)

Let's see who sticks around once everything moves over to ARM - X86 is a dying platform.

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KVRAF
4239 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:49 am

Once their WUP/transfer scam was launched I stopped buying Waves. Luckily I had only been a customer for a few years before that and was very picky about what I bought. I focused mostly on their analogue modeled products. They are still useful but I don't use them as much as tools from other companies. I am sort of put off by Waves now because of their scam but I will get back using them. Selling them is now not in the cards unless I just want to liquidate them, again because of their WUP/transfer scam. I accept that scams like this will occur in the audio software market unfortunately. There is nothing customers can do other than vote with their cash - don't buy anything from them anymore.

KVRAF
1638 posts since 14 Sep, 2004 from $HOME

Post Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:35 am

It is not a scam (“scam (noun): a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation”, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam).
It took me two clicks to find out about WUP on waves.com, they even write “ If you don’t wish to renew, the plugins you own will remain yours as before...”. I find that rather transparent. Take it or leave it.
You don’t have to like it nor buy waves plugins (I pretty much don’t, but for other reasons), but calling it a scam is just the typical social media hysteria culture where everything that someone doesn’t like is dramatized and exaggerated to no end and every company that dares to do something to your disliking are “greedy, snakeoil selling scammers” that need to be boycotted.
And no, I’m not a Waves “fanboy”, i don’t even care about them much.

Maintenance plans are pretty much standard in the enterprise software business btw.

KVRAF
20690 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Post Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:42 am

fese wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:35 am
calling it a scam is just the typical social media hysteria culture where everything that someone doesn’t like is dramatized and exaggerated to no end and every company that dares to do something to your disliking are “greedy, snakeoil selling scammers” that need to be boycotted.
This.

And basically it's bullying tactics (not saying I've never been guilty of it myself though - probably I have on occassion)

User avatar
KVRAF
4239 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:50 am

fese wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:35 am
It is not a scam (“scam (noun): a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation”, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scam).
Yes, that is the denotational use of "scam". I used the connotation of "scam". But in some contexts the denotational use is still relevant as it applies to Waves. :tu:

KVRist
308 posts since 14 Sep, 2016

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:28 pm

I'd prefer it if they released updates to individual plugins vs. this plan. I have a few plugs and am reviewing the release notes for the last versions after considering some of my v9s. Not much but bug fixes, zero mentioned about my individual plug-ins as of yet and almost no enhancements, yet they pressure me whenever they have a chance to upgrade my software for what looks like no reason except to subsidize the fixing of bugs they created in the first place and a bunch of other bugs with third party software that I don't even use. That and some UI improvements. Re-sizable windows. woohoo

Yeah, the VAST majority of release notes are them fixing what it looks like they effed up in the first place. The other release notes are mostly vague ("faster loading times" - on what? how much faster?), though it appears in v12 they're a bit more specific.

$75 for basically nothing? Sounds like a legit scam to me - a SCAM, purposefully a trick but with plausible deniability because they do write that "you don't need it" clause (unless you want your software bug-free - meaning working as intended - then you DO need it) - but in every other way except that one clause they are doing all they can to trick me into spending $75 on basically nothing. Oh, wait, I see - that $75 is for them fixing what they effed up in the first place:

H-DelayFixed: Bug causing dither noise to persist when Mains/Analog Noise is set to Off.

I don't know who the marketing and customer relations people are for this company, but they fail on every level except for the look-at-us-we're-shameless-vampires level. Really, if they made an update for H-Series alone to H-Series 12 or whatever it would be, listed the actual enhancements (not bug fixes) I'd be much more inclined to listen and follow through. But they ask for $75, don't really give specific reasons why, make me scour their disorganized and vague change log (or bug-fix log) only to find out that I'd be subsidizing the motion detection on their headphone tracking, something which I will never use, and that they've only done a few bug fixes on software that I already own. Nice! How about you don't create the bugs in the first place and - if you do - you fix them for free because you have pride in your work and take responsibility if you suck? No, once again, I notice they have NO PROBLEM making THEIR mistakes customer expenses.

I'm only disappointed by the fact that I like some of their products, otherwise it would be so easy to kick them to the curb. I still may, but - for the time being - I'm unwilling to forsake helpful tools for tools.

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KVRAF
4239 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:10 pm

I widdled my Waves suit down to those I like and use: most of the analogue models, instruments and a couple producer packs that were on deep discount. I sold the rest off as the whole 2nd hand market was compromized by Waves progression of changed policies.

Now I approach Waves this way: I have what I have and as long as they work... that's that. That's that. No more Waves for me. The main reason is that V12+ require Metal video which my mac pro doesn't have so I'd have to spend about $300 on a video card to run Waves... uh, no.

I have the option to sell them all at once which is the only thing that makes sense for the cost invovlved WUP+Fees. And there is the option to carry on for WUP if I do get a video card or another mac that is Metal compatible. But for now it's a static situation for me - I dont even look at anything to do with Waves products anymore - just use what I have.
Last edited by plexuss on Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KVRist
308 posts since 14 Sep, 2016

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:34 pm

It's quite a feat - they're literally the ONLY plugin company that I ACTIVELY and INTENTIONALLY try to give as little of my money to as possible. Save pirating which I won't do, I'll do just about anything to give them as little money as possible and avoid giving them money directly - second hand, third party deep discounts, ANYTHING except buy it from them directly. I've been so disgusted by their lies - the "extremely limited time" sales that last for years; I'm so sick of seeing them drool over my wallet; and now I'm flabbergasted about their essential bait-and-switch operation to get you to buy a buggy plugin so they can then proceed to charge you years later to fix their own mistakes. I've never had such a poor impression of a plugin company in my whole life, purely based off of their behavior and how they present themselves.

I like you're way of dealing with it, plexuss, and may go a similar route.
Last edited by 10bd01 on Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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