Electronics in music and how do you use it? Humans or machine, who controls who?

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KVRAF
21315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:30 pm

a whole lot of this rhythmic action in action movies is presets and sequenced effects in certain products. And there's been an explosion in the past decade of these products. VSL is making phrase-based libraries now. It's understandable because of time constraints but it gets weary to experience it so often, there's no genuine idea, it's just a certain kind of expected noise.

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KVRAF
21315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:31 pm

Before computers, there was no cheating, most of the people that are attracted to that MO woulda quit in a week in my day. This is someone miming to a record trying to win the highschool talent show. You can win if you're one of the popular kids with money, but regular schmucks get laughed out of town.

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KVRian
616 posts since 15 Apr, 2012 from Moscow, Russia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:33 am

I didn't expect my humble post to induce such a reaction, just my 5 cents. FYI - I don't have any formal music training and everything I know related to music is self-education and I have knowledge mostly related to electronics music genres.
By 'perfection' I din't mean rigid timing and repetitiveness, I mean that in pre-computer era you had to master lots of the stuff that computers can easily do for us today. You don't have to have perfect keyboard playing skills, you can have a decent recording studio and synths in any modern laptop, etc, etc... So with today's technology you can make a decent EDM track knowing just the basics of harmony, having moderate keyboard playing skills and some talent. You don't even have to underscatd scores - piano roll will do the job.
I it is a double-sided coin for sure, cause some kids will inevitably take some DAW with factory loops or tools like Avenger/Nexus, churn out some quick stuff and call themselves 'producers'. But this is inevitable part of the process, being the kid myself I did the same (didn't call myself producer though). And I'm fine with that as soon as you understand that you're far away from being professional musician this way. But if it is just for fun - why not.
To rephrase that interesting paradox I was referring to - imagine a person with no musical training given a violin in 18th century and trying to play something musical with it. What would come out would be likely a noise or something atonal. In a few days of training it will only be possible to learn some simple melody and play it with a bad timing. And that person would require months, if not years of training to play complicated pieces.
Now imagine a teenager with a laptop and a MIDI keyboard. Take any modern DAW with a sample library - it will be damn easy to churn out something repetitive and boring in just a few days ). It won't be the atonal noise like in the 1st case with the violin, but it will be something very repetitive and robotic so to speak. And it will take some learning curve to make something decent and more interesting (using a bunch of relevant techniques). Maybe 'imperfection' is not the correct term here, more accurate to say more variation, which can be either deliberate variation or some randomness.

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KVRAF
21315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:35 am

Well, I have shite keyboard skills, but no musical skills is quite another matter.

"I mean that in pre-computer era you had to master lots of the stuff that computers can easily do for us today."
I don't know how your takeaway is that I don't grasp what you said unless you aren't interested in understanding what I said.
Computers cannot replace one's skills in the realm of timing. There is no paradox.

"But if it is just for fun - why not." How does the goalpost end up way over here? That's a different subject.
You made remarks as to perfect timing and asserting essentially that the computer today replaces one's whole agency in the matter of timing {the stuff that computers can easily do for us today} as well as note choice, evidently, and needing to be told by a piece of code what chords supposedly work, on top of it correcting to key like the person supposely making music has no clue. Ok, now you've abdicated ownership of 'perfection vs imperfections'.
Not imperfection but "more variation, which can be either deliberate variation or some randomness."
And what actual skill set does one bring to these choices?

"So with today's technology you can make a decent EDM track knowing just the basics of harmony, having moderate keyboard playing skills and some talent. You don't even have to underscatd scores - piano roll will do the job."
SO? Great, a whole broad genre with (deliberately?) lower standards. You don't have to understand anything except the cookie cutter form you're trying to fill with some code's assessment of the dough needed.
"a decent EDM track" is yet a new goalpost, too. Yeah, no shit, there are musics today which don't require people even becoming musicians. Don't know why you're reiterating the same points like I didn't already respond in detail to all of it.

You do what you like, it's your business. I'd recommend listening over talking at this juncture in your journey, frankly.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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KVRian
1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:57 am

graywolf2004 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:33 am
I didn't expect my humble post to induce such a reaction, just my 5 cents. FYI - I don't have any formal music training and everything I know related to music is self-education and I have knowledge mostly related to electronics music genres.
By 'perfection' I din't mean rigid timing and repetitiveness, I mean that in pre-computer era you had to master lots of the stuff that computers can easily do for us today. You don't have to have perfect keyboard playing skills, you can have a decent recording studio and synths in any modern laptop, etc, etc... So with today's technology you can make a decent EDM track knowing just the basics of harmony, having moderate keyboard playing skills and some talent. You don't even have to underscatd scores - piano roll will do the job.
I it is a double-sided coin for sure, cause some kids will inevitably take some DAW with factory loops or tools like Avenger/Nexus, churn out some quick stuff and call themselves 'producers'. But this is inevitable part of the process, being the kid myself I did the same (didn't call myself producer though). And I'm fine with that as soon as you understand that you're far away from being professional musician this way. But if it is just for fun - why not.
To rephrase that interesting paradox I was referring to - imagine a person with no musical training given a violin in 18th century and trying to play something musical with it. What would come out would be likely a noise or something atonal. In a few days of training it will only be possible to learn some simple melody and play it with a bad timing. And that person would require months, if not years of training to play complicated pieces.
Now imagine a teenager with a laptop and a MIDI keyboard. Take any modern DAW with a sample library - it will be damn easy to churn out something repetitive and boring in just a few days ). It won't be the atonal noise like in the 1st case with the violin, but it will be something very repetitive and robotic so to speak. And it will take some learning curve to make something decent and more interesting (using a bunch of relevant techniques). Maybe 'imperfection' is not the correct term here, more accurate to say more variation, which can be either deliberate variation or some randomness.
To some extent at least, we are all basically saying similar things, but there is possibly just a lack of communication because of the use of certain words such as PERFECTION IMPERFECTION and now ATONAL...'atonal' is not necessarily a derogatory word... In fact far from it!

The violin / modern DAW analogy...

Actually much more nuanced and complicated than you might think...

As a music teacher / lecturer over 32 years I have seen what happens when you put a violin (or any other instrument) in the hands of someone with no musical background...

Obviously there are severe technical limitations as to what they can achieve, but also a magical sense of freedom... No restrictions or expectations... Within the technical limitations young kids, teenagers, adults regularly come up with extraordinary effective musical patterns and ideas!

I've been involved in 1000s of workshops of this sort over the past 30 + years and it has to be seen / heard to be fully understood!

Put a modern DAW in the hands of a typical teenager with no musical background and yeah, some will come up with a few basic ideas etc, but many actually get completely stumped by the technological barrier and create much less than the young child with the first time violin! Seen it many times... Without support using even the most straightforward music tech, they just fold and give up!
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRAF
21315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:10 am

<someone in the 18th c. has to learn how to play and it takes time to do that, now with computers there's less training required; because the goal is supposed as a different goal>. That's not a paradox, that's two different goalposts. Either you learn to play and develop chops or not. No one is coercing anyone to. My entire thrust in arguing it may be boiled down to: as regards more variation [] either deliberate variation or some randomness, the deliberations etc are down to what one understands. Having musical chops is not more avoidable in 2021 than it was in 1721. One may not get that it shows, and one may get validation in abundance anyway, but it shows.

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KVRist
193 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 am

To be honest, I never really wanted to play synthesizers; I want to be one.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 Karma, MC909, Microkorg, MU100R/VL70 w. BC1, Nord Lead 2, Polivoks, Prophecy, WSA-1, Mac Pro w. Reason 11 Suite + Nektar P4 + Nektar Impact LX25+.

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KVRAF
21315 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:29 am

Everybody has to start somewhere. But there is this whole context here, particularly the ad-driven audio plugins forum where one has seen it argued again and again how not knowing isn't not knowing because you don't need to know anymore. The supposed paradox is once upon a time two weeks wasn't enough for a child to show anything, now they may. Fine, I encourage children and I would def not exclude teh DAW software etc.

I wouldn't pin my argument on what a child has to show in that couple of weeks unless the argument is EDM is essentially what a child shows after two weeks, so no problem.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRian
1061 posts since 23 Nov, 2018 from Birmingham, UK

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:38 am

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 am
To be honest, I never really wanted to play synthesizers; I want to be one.
Me too! 🙄

That's why I've had sonic implants in my fingertips! 😭🙄😁😳
Mark Taylor, Chameleon Music - Professional composition and sound design for all media since 1994.

https://www.chameleonmusic.co.uk/

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KVRist
193 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:45 am

Before we found our present focus, my guitar player and I had a kind of jam project called World Machine. I programmed some generators in Reason, mostly by use of euclidean players and other probability based stuff. Even though I programmed the modules to stay within scale, the things they do are just wonderfully crazy: Music without idea and direction, consistent themes or anything human. A life on their own as if we were in early state of evolution of AI. Only my bandmate's guitar riffs and my synth playing added a little musical recognition to it. Great fun and can be inspiring too as far as breaking limits concerns.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 Karma, MC909, Microkorg, MU100R/VL70 w. BC1, Nord Lead 2, Polivoks, Prophecy, WSA-1, Mac Pro w. Reason 11 Suite + Nektar P4 + Nektar Impact LX25+.

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