Well this is a kick in the nuts: VST2 plug-ins

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
KVRAF
1635 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:26 am

lkjb wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:10 am
Having a glance at the VST3.6.10 license agreement, Steinberg can terminate the license if a new agreement is available.
VST3 License Agreement § 9 TERM AND TERMINATION wrote: c) Steinberg is entitled to terminate this agreement with a 6 months written notice if Steinberg offers
a new, e.g. amended, VST 3 Plug-In SDK Licensing Agreement. For the validity of the
termination it shall be sufficient that Steinberg sends the termination to the last known email
address of the Licensee.
This certainly is some kind of leverage.
:o You are brave people to build businesses around this kind of partnership.

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Urs
u-he
25631 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:28 am

(in reply to Markus' point about separation of GUI and DSP)

I don't mind separation between GUI and DSP, even if I too think it's unnecessary today. But I don't like that the GUI-part has to be set up with all the semantics of the plug-in, i.e. knowledge of parameters etc. before it can access the DSP-part. That's just counter intuitive IMHO, because any modular DSP framework will define parameter information on module level, it would be overkill to design every simple module (filter, oscillator, LFO etc.) in two separate classes, one for the DSP part, one for the view, where the DSP part needs to be kept in sync with the view.

This for me is the most serious issue with VST3, it requires us to create a placeholder DSP-object in the controller because we need to query the DSP-object before the controller is attached to one.

None of this has any benefit to plug-in development, even if it may ease host development in one or more cases. But as the ratio hosts : plug-ins outnumbers one to thousands, any plug-in format should remove such burden from the side of plug-in development.

VST2 does not pose any of these adoption hurdles, hence IMHO should remain format of choice for beginners.

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KVRAF
21537 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:37 am

Markus Krause wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:14 am
I do not think that this will happen.
Well, wait and see... It's almost guaranteed to happen, considering all Steinberg moves up until now.

KVRist
166 posts since 12 May, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:23 am

how is this not functionally a monopoly? one company owns the standard that the entire industry is beholden to. no one is going to play ball except through a proprietary liscense that is subject to whatever their overlord whims happen to be

this is absolutely unacceptable. if i had a dog in the race, i might not only be thinking of how to unshackle, but also about revenge

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KVRAF
21537 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:32 am

Ha there's also AAX and AU and AUv3 and LV2, sure not as widespread but there are "competing" formats.

KVRAF
28107 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:21 am

kamalmanzukie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:23 am
this is absolutely unacceptable. if i had a dog in the race, i might not only be thinking of how to unshackle, but also about revenge
Molotov cocktails on the Steinberg HQ?
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

KVRist
161 posts since 30 Jun, 2015

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:31 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:21 am
kamalmanzukie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:23 am
this is absolutely unacceptable. if i had a dog in the race, i might not only be thinking of how to unshackle, but also about revenge
Molotov cocktails on the Steinberg HQ?
Please no endorsement or incitement of violence because of a plugin format.

KVRist
166 posts since 12 May, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:31 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:32 am
Ha there's also AAX and AU and AUv3 and LV2, sure not as widespread but there are "competing" formats.
i mean, really though, are there? this stuff shouldn't be decided on technicalities, you know, if you can see the market share with a microscope, but whether its de facto true. would anyone here argue that its not

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KVRAF
21537 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:36 am

AU definitely has a not insignificant userbase alone...

KVRAF
2411 posts since 17 Sep, 2016

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:42 am

Maybe Microsofty could step up with their own VST2 compatible plugin format for the Windows platform?
Windows10; plugins from AAS, Ableton, AIR, Ample, Arturia, Cakewalk, Cherry, DiscoDSP, Fathom, IKM, Initial, iZotope, KV331, NI, PluginGuru, PreSonus, Surge, TAL, Tone2, Toontrack, Tracktion, u-he, UJAM, UVI, Vital, Waves, XLN ...

KVRist
166 posts since 12 May, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:47 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:21 am
kamalmanzukie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:23 am
this is absolutely unacceptable. if i had a dog in the race, i might not only be thinking of how to unshackle, but also about revenge
Molotov cocktails on the Steinberg HQ?
i think i might sign up to their forum and leave some nice messages as an independent herald of doom. everyone on that thread is so demoralized with their questions about what will happen, i didnt see a single person saying i'm gonna personally make sure you lose your position entirely because of your greed and stupidity. not that im planning to, but they probably aren't hearing nearly enough tough talk like that. who has a good ideas to make this a nightmare for them. start some whispers about a grassroots movement for an open standard with a couple huge investors behind them and people starting to make moves

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KVRAF
21537 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:52 am

zzz00m wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:42 am
Maybe Microsofty could step up with their own VST2 compatible plugin format for the Windows platform?
Yeah, DXi was super successful. :)

KVRist
166 posts since 12 May, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:55 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:36 am
AU definitely has a not insignificant userbase alone...
oh yeah the one for mac, great. that is a viable competitor to the vst standard, if you happen to own a mac

maybe you do, i personally don't. i'm getting the feeling that not enough people are feeling bloodlust over this and maybe therein lies part of the problem

KVRist
185 posts since 13 Oct, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:03 am

zzz00m wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:42 am
Maybe Microsofty could step up with their own VST2 compatible plugin format for the Windows platform?
There was the DirectX audio plugin format which no one uses any more.
kamalmanzukie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:47 am
[...] but they probably aren't hearing nearly enough tough talk like that. who has a good ideas to make this a nightmare for them.
If your read here regularily there's lots of developers (edit: maybe not lots but a few very loud ones) who very loudly complain about Steinberg quite often. It's mostly small devs, though, who don't have much impact as it seems.
Last edited by lkjb on Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRist
166 posts since 12 May, 2012

Post Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:03 am

zzz00m wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:42 am
Maybe Microsofty could step up with their own VST2 compatible plugin format for the Windows platform?
no one is going to step up and somehow replace what is an already established as standard out of the goodness of their hearts. the only thing to do is go for their neck somehow. maybe they don't qualify as a monopoly but has anyone even looked into it? steinberg is a german company? dunno how that works internationally but i bet germany is stricter on that stuff that the US

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