Music Theory Rule I Dont Like

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
KVRer
15 posts since 19 Sep, 2015

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:41 am

SteveCo wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:20 pm
Fis and Ges are different tones. To allow more modulations the Kirnberger and Werckmeister (etc) tuning made the tones less different. The equal temperament made them the same. Play Wagner on a Cembalo and you know what I mean!
Greetings
Even not the same acoustically. G-flat is not found in D-major scale. The power of harmony is stronger than the equal temperament.

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KVRAF
21334 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:04 am

The type of temperament has no actual impact on the meaning of enharmonics. Yes, it is true that things became more and more tempered in order to obtain more consistency in the distant-from-C keys. EG., Gb is very unlikely to be seen in eg., D major because of the distance by the cycle of fifths, in 12tET and never in a tempered rational intonation such as Werckmeister or a 'well' temperament, 1/6th commas etc.

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Suspended
266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:16 am

vstpluginsliker wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:38 am
I don't like that putting a sharp in front of an F makes the rest of the Fs a sharp. Say in a measure i just want one F to be sharp and the next F in the same measure to be an F natural, then i would have to put a symbol to show that is a natural.
Its confusing for nothing. I rather put a sharp in front of every F that uses it and dont put it in front of natural Fs--simple :)
This is funny! How often have I cursed about that when I noticed that I was playing the notes wrong all the time because of such extremely confusing notations if you're a beginner!

I don't like that piano pieces are never written in a way to facilitate playing for those who haven't studied music and who are struggling to analyse the piece first to better understand it. There should generally be versions of sheet music (to be downloaded freely online) which are more friendly and less confusing. This should become much more "in fashion" I think. Sometimes they even nowadays still call pieces an "etude" and all there is is a jungle of confusing notes that have been copied over from the original without adding anything that may help - which to me is a joke.

E.g. if you play something with the left hand WHY NOT GENERALLY mark this in a specific color? Instead you find the notes all distributed in both bass and treble keys. I know, someone will reply you can play the pieces differently, but then there should be more color coded versions that facilitate playing. I mean in general this would be very helpful.
The important notes, melody units, etc.: this should all be transcribed as units that make everything more understandable and visible. There might e. g. be annotations if necessary, just like in literature where you get annotations that actually explain things to you so you are not left alone with something that's hard to understand.

There is too little sheet music that helps beginners to play the pieces because it's all standardized and empty with no colors and no explanations, only the minimum of often very confusing notes in black and white. What belongs together is not indicated as such so everything is just a jungle that may be very very demotivating.
It could be different. Sheet music nowadays could generally be more edited for didactic reasons to help playing the pieces of music.
The rule that you mentioned above and that confused you is only the tip of an iceberg. There is always so much to think about if sheet music hasn't been well annotated, it might just prevent you from playing it at all if you only do it as your hobby and you can't pay for private teachers...
Motives could e. g. be color coded so that you could at a glance see where they repeat in varied forms. Then there should be a circle around a variation and the type of variation should be written above it. This would be a kind of sheet music I would like to see more often.

In our time there should be more didactically edited sheet music for learners, especially free stuff put online. Most sheet music is useless to learners because it STILL today just notes everything down as they did in the Middle Ages when they couldn't pay for the color and they didn't understand how learning really works. :D

So the rule I don't like is: note down only the key, the notes and the minimum when you issue some sheet music. This rule is no longer up-to-date I think. People want to understand stuff in less awkward ways nowadays and the old notational system prevents many children and hobby musicians from understanding and wanting to learn music I think. Sheet music looks scary to many people and I can understand why.

They have changed that in medicine with the patient information sheets lately so as to make people who are not already doctors actually understand something, so why not eventually in music?
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KVRer
8 posts since 30 Apr, 2021

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:09 am

Cool but I think is more probable that you will need another F# right afer (in tonal music) so it should help reading

KVRAF
2044 posts since 20 Dec, 2002 from The Benighted States of Trumpistan

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:05 pm

It seems that what we have is the worst possible system -- except for all the other options. The big advantage is that it functions reasonably well for notating tonal music involving accidentals and key modulations. But if you're not doing any of that, it's just irritating excess baggage. (Not that lacking extra-tonic notes makes something inferior: plenty of cultures have classical music that stays within a single key or mode.)

For example, quite a few singers learned a notation with a relative tonic: C is always the root of the key, whether that tonic actually be a B or F#. I'd imagine it helps develop a better ear for where you are in relationship to the tonic. I think they use accidentals, but that just gets us back to where we started. But if you stay in one key, it's perfectly fine. If you use a shorthand with the "hat" notation like a lot of theoreticians -- numbers topped with a caret to indicate scale degrees -- you're in the same position as the "C = tonic" people. IIRC, some Nashville guys use a number notation for chords: 1 is C, 2 is D, or something like that. Again, you end up with the same problem with accidentals and change of keys.

So yeah -- common notation is adequate for simple harmony and melody, but merely horrible for more complex cases. It's a "least bad option" rather than something actually good. I don't know what could replace it; alternative notations always seem to be more complex and difficult, and hey, inertia is a real thing.
Joy and kindness are acts of resistance -- fight the power!

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KVRAF
12696 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01 pm

juno987654321 wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:16 am

[...] etudes [...]
Yeah well, it becomes harder after you're done with this:

Image

Not unthinkable you acrually progress more if you take lessons with a real teacher that will give you excersizes at your level and not throws you in the deep end head first.
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266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:19 pm

Jafo wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:05 pm
So yeah -- common notation is adequate for simple harmony and melody [...]
No, it isn't. You can't see the wood for the trees. It's a nuisance to pupils at school and something to still stay away from at home.
That's all it really is and theoreticians who can't see the problem and its sad practical implications are partly to be blamed when making music won't become more accessible to a broader public as it is supposed to be. Making music should be something everybody should actually join in because it is part of our human nature.

It's not a problem for doctors or professors who think the most complex atonal melodies should have even more complex notational systems. This would be turning the problem completely on its head. I can't see a problem in that at all for if someone has already advanced to making music which is so way beyond anything common then why bother about that? Then they could just make their own sheet music and they're done?

The problems that the notational system causes only (or at least most urgently) ARISE for those who are trying hard to start reading notes, struggling because it is all just UNNECESSARILY difficult. A system that does not even indicate basic units that naturally belong together and that need to be communicated to the reader is dysfunctional to its very core!...

Most problems will never be solved because they just can't be seen as such and because "the adults" get used to any hardships for the sheer reason that they have just become so "normal". :roll: In German we call this "verbildet". I couldn't even translate it. It means that people get too "educated" in all the wrong ways so that nothing will ever change any more because they've gotten used to it all. So everything will stay as rigid as it has become...
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266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:28 pm

BertKoor wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01 pm

Yeah well, it becomes harder after you're done with this:

Image

Not unthinkable you acrually progress more if you take lessons with a real teacher that will give you excersizes at your level and not throws you in the deep end head first.
I don't know this particular book but I know the series. If it's been didactically well edited it may be worth a try but the title "for dummies" does not seem too adequate because it sounds very self-depreciating to me. People aren't so dumb at all if they are interested in learning and exploring new things. Good autodidactic material is something I always support and if you need a teacher my advice is to pay students to teach you. They need the money more urgently than others and they may know a lot...
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

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KVRAF
21334 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:58 pm

.

the job of producing a sheet music is not to teach form or technique or concepts, it's there so the piece's notes and expression (sometimes presented somewhat objectively) can be replicated by the next player, or the intended player.

my advice is to pay students to teach you
you have a rather crap [entitled] disposition to all this, you know

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266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Sat May 01, 2021 6:06 am

jancivil wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:58 pm
.

the job of producing a sheet music is not to teach form or technique or concepts, it's there so the piece's notes and expression (sometimes presented somewhat objectively) can be replicated by the next player, or the intended player.

my advice is to pay students to teach you
you have a rather crap [entitled] disposition to all this, you know
...or the intended player: that's the problem! It's too exclusive and it causes unnecessary difficulties for the piece to be replicated by "the next player", provided that the next player could just be anyone. There should be more alternative "productions" of sheet music that facilitate the learning process, MUCH unlike the standard ones you still have in mind there. I have given some first constructive impressions of what such sheet music could look like whereas you haven't added any new ideas to it and just added something to destroy the idea again. That's just destructive!

The neutral kinds of sheet music you have in mind to me are no longer interesting but you can always use them if you like. They will always be around because they are soooo objective but they are also rather cheap (!) in my view and I have no good use for them.
Sorry, but I always see things from a learner's perspective and you may call this whatever you like.

TBH, I don't really care if you or many others have no compassion for this kind of alternative perspective because there will be more friendly and like-minded people who will understand me much better: it's just the common thing to IGNORE the learners' perspective and it's nothing special at all! People forget their own past and pretend that music can only be something for professionals and academics. That's quite the wrong "disposition" or attitude, completely snobbish and way too standard in my view. You can keep this view but I'd definately have to distance myself from that! It's not nice to many people who would also like to join in and play music and this forum is open to all people. If I chose a student to teach me it would certainly be someone who is more open to anyone. I don't like people with a more elitist view to teach me anything! :uhuhuh:
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

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KVRAF
12696 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Post Sat May 01, 2021 7:03 am

You need a teacher. Period.
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266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Sat May 01, 2021 7:23 am

It's not just about me. I like to think in somewhat broader terms and I think you missed the point of that.
But don't worry. It's OK...
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

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addled muppet weed
77729 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sat May 01, 2021 7:51 am

there's plenty of beginner material out there, but like finding a teacher, it's finding one that works for you.
the for dummies and idiots guides, are both great beginner resources. as they do what you ask, they explain things in plain language.
there's also apps like yousician these days, which many people claim has helped (never used it so can't comment myself).

but as with anything, your going to start simple, probably playing stuff of little interest to you while you learn, then worry about sheets for songs you like :)

KVRian
835 posts since 27 Apr, 2005

Post Sat May 01, 2021 8:12 am

juno987654321 wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 7:23 am
It's not just about me. I like to think in somewhat broader terms and I think you missed the point of that.
But don't worry. It's OK...
You aren't thinking in broad terms at all, you are thinking in terms that correspond to your current level of the musical journey and financial status. you want the accepted practice of musical notation to be altered (and as an aside, my own understanding of notation and theory is VERY rudimentary at best) and you want multiple versions of sheet music to be available online, and you want people to do the work of transcribing it into these new notational forms for free. while this might have some benefit to the beginning musician (with the side detriment that it actually impedes learning by allowing students to bypass concepts that it will be important to know later) the purpose of musical notations is not learning, it is a way of preserving a musical idea and communicating it to other musicians. just like any language, a basic level of proficiency is assumed, and it is your job to attain that level of proficiency, in the same way that theoretical physicists should not have to rewrite their dissertations so that they are easily understood by elementary school science students.

Luckily, music is not merely a playground for the elitist, and notational literacy is not a requisite for playing or enjoying music in many forms. I have had loads of enjoyment (and a small amount of income) over the last 35 years using my ear, a small amount of theory, and experimentation. Youtube alone can show you how to play anything. But a real music education is helpful, and if I had it to do over, I would take the time to learn.

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266 posts since 4 Dec, 2019

Post Sat May 01, 2021 9:12 am

If it is a way of preserving a musical idea and communicating it to other musicians it could be optimized as suggested and yes, most dissertations should be rewritten so as to make more people understand them. There's often not too much content in dissertations but lots of hot air. It's just the way in which they are written that gives them some semblance of being really difficult to understand them. Other dissertations I have come across are more up-to-date and very clear so everybody could understand them. They are great! This really depends on the authors. In reality it's just that some authors failed to communicate their ideas to a broader public and I don't appreciate that.
BTW the real art is always to explain something very difficult to the broadest possible audience. Breaking things down is something that demands some sovereign knowledge and expertise. Few people can do it but those who are able to do it are the real intelligent ones who don't have to brag with some empty words or anything like that but those people are able to really share their wonderful ideas with everyone. I'm very fascinated of such people!
My point was simply that it would be a good idea to also make sheet music more intelligible and that it's hard to find such sheet music because it's not trendy enough to make it. I feel sorry if this idea is not appreciated here at all but, anyways, that doesn't make it a bad idea. Maybe in a 100 years people would understand this all much better. It's about sharing ideas...

Apart from that youtube tutorials are great and so are many books that explain everything well but it's a different topic. I was focussing on the notational system a bit and as I already stated in my eyes it's to a large degree just dysfunctional because it doesn't even communicate the minimum that would be necessary for a good communication from the creator to the recipients. Sorry, but I'm sure someone will understand this still. It's just that whenever you have an idea that's a bit new or against the grain that it won't be appreciated. That's no news to me. Maybe somewhen in the future then. Who knows?!..

In one thing I can agree with you, though, that "luckily, music is not merely a playground for the elitist". That's right! And still things could always be improved in the future...
Nothing can be better than liberty and free time to spend as you choose. Let's give those modern slaveholders the bum's rush!

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