Softube Model 84 (Juno 106)
- GRRRRRRR!
- 15959 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
There is only so much you can do with sound design. You're never going to get a big, deep resonant bassline from anything with a Ladder filter, for example, no matter how good your sound design skills are.
I also prefer resonance with a wider "Q" value, so you don't get that perception of separation of the resonant peak at high settings.
For me it's not about it "falling apart", it's how useful the sound is at medium to high resonance. e.g. With ladder filters, turning up the resonance attenuates the whole signal so the bass drops out, which makes them very poor for the kind of squelchy basslines we like to use. OTOH, a SEM style filter is great for that, because as the filter closes, the resonance pumps up the bottom end, making it even fatter. And with a really good filter, you will get that effect with relatively modest resonance settings.e-crooner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:35 pmWhat do you mean by good? When I try a new synth, I barely touch the resonance knob. Resonance is kind of irrelevant to me. I need to like what I hear when using a resonance value of 50% max. I don't care whether or not a filter falls apart at 80 or 100% of resonance because I will never use such settings, anyway.
I also prefer resonance with a wider "Q" value, so you don't get that perception of separation of the resonant peak at high settings.
I'm sorry but that's absolute rubbish. I can't think of a synth with such a variety of filter types. It's a highlight of that instrument. Remember, too, Pigments is made by the same company that does all the big synth emulations so the SEM, Matrix 12, MiniMoog and Jupiter-8 filters in Pigments are all going to sound very close to the real thing.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.
- Banned
- 3564 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I never know what people here mean by that wordBONES wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm There is only so much you can do with sound design. You're never going to get a big, deep resonant bassline from anything with a Ladder filter, for example, no matter how good your sound design skills are.For me it's not about it "falling apart", it's how useful the sound is at medium to high resonance. e.g. With ladder filters, turning up the resonance attenuates the whole signal so the bass drops out, which makes them very poor for the kind of squelchy basslines we like to use. OTOH, a SEM style filter is great for that, because as the filter closes, the resonance pumps up the bottom end, making it even fatter. And with a really good filter, you will get that effect with relatively modest resonance settings.e-crooner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:35 pmWhat do you mean by good? When I try a new synth, I barely touch the resonance knob. Resonance is kind of irrelevant to me. I need to like what I hear when using a resonance value of 50% max. I don't care whether or not a filter falls apart at 80 or 100% of resonance because I will never use such settings, anyway.
I also prefer resonance with a wider "Q" value, so you don't get that perception of separation of the resonant peak at high settings.
But when the bass diminishes, you can turn up the overall volume, right? The Minimoog was often used for bass, obviously, being monophonic...
By q you mean the width of the frequency range covered by the resonance peak?
Like with an equalizer?
-
Super Piano Hater 64 Super Piano Hater 64 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=491312
- KVRist
- 376 posts since 24 Jan, 2021
"Squelchy" means it sounds almost like a viscous fluid being squeezed through a tight opening. Like if you're squirting ketchup out of a bottle, or stepping on a jellyfish with your bare foot.
I hate signatures too.
-
Echoes in the Attic Echoes in the Attic https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=180417
- KVRAF
- 11054 posts since 12 May, 2008
Think 303 acid sound. High resonance squeeling.
Usually with low or no resonance.But when the bass diminishes, you can turn up the overall volume, right? The Minimoog was often used for bass, obviously, being monophonic...
- KVRian
- 710 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan
The Juno-106 has a bass boost when HPF is at zero. I don't know of any other synths (Roland or otherwise) with that feature. The Juno-6/60 don't have the bass boost.
Stormchild
- Banned
- 3564 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
Found this:
"The MKS-70, JX8P, JX-10 and Alpha-Junos all use the same filter topology: A 2 Pole lowpass in series with a 2 Pole Bandpass. This is quite different than the JX3P, which is an honest to goodness 4 Pole lowpass, as you say, of the same IC manufacture generation of the Juno 60 and Jupiter 8.
...
It's hardwired in series, giving you a 24db/oct Lowpass slope, and 12db/oct Highpass slope. You just don't always notice it because the non-resonant Highpass stage that comes after both has a bass boost circuit."
http://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic ... 2&start=30
In the manual of the free JX-8P emulation PG-8X it also mentions the bass boost:
"The filter section contains a simple 6dB/oct high pass filter
(HPF) and a 24dB/oct low pass filter. The HPF does not have
any dynamic controls and only 4 settings. It should be noted
that '1' is the neutral setting, while '0' acts as a bass boost. '2'
and '3' enable the fixed frequency high pass filter."
- GRRRRRRR!
- 15959 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
Only if everything is static but if you're modulating the filter with envelopes and velocity, you end up with some loud notes and other notes being quiet, usually the opposite way to what you want. i.e. Notes with low velocity values end up being louder than notes with higher velocity. It doesn't work.
Yes, the range of frequencies affected by the resonance value. It might not be exactly what it is but some filters get squealy and some feel richer in tone as you increase the resonance.By q you mean the width of the frequency range covered by the resonance peak?
Like with an equalizer?
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.
-
- KVRAF
- 15517 posts since 13 Oct, 2009
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 20 Apr, 2005
Or maybe you're doing it wrong?anadroid wrote: ↑Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:26 pmYeah, but that's not a need! Ok, maybe it is for someone who's an obsessive compulsive collector of synths (and there might be one or two such people on KVR), but it shouldn't be a need for a producer. If a producer is thinking of what specific synth they need for a part instead of what sound they need for a part, they're really doing it wrong!
Some people like to choose a set of instruments to work with, and then just use those to create their music.
These people may well looks for the best sounding 3-4 synths that fill theirs needs before they start.
-
- KVRAF
- 1863 posts since 11 Apr, 2008
I think that in such simple synths like Model 84 filter is very important because there are not many modules in the entire synth. Comparison to DX7 / FM8 or even Pigments doesn't make any sense.
Ps.
NI Super 8 has a nice sounding filter. But put resonance to 100% or around - your ears will bleed - it's simply a disgusting piece of noise. Unusable for crazy fx sweeps etc. It's funny because filters in MX are clear even on 100% resonance.
Ps. e-crooner - you said that you don't pay attention to filter resonance when you're trying a new synth. It's the first or second thing I'm checking while I'm trying a new synth. The high resonance behaviour of the filter is the benchmark for the synth. Different people, different needs
Ps.
NI Super 8 has a nice sounding filter. But put resonance to 100% or around - your ears will bleed - it's simply a disgusting piece of noise. Unusable for crazy fx sweeps etc. It's funny because filters in MX are clear even on 100% resonance.
Ps. e-crooner - you said that you don't pay attention to filter resonance when you're trying a new synth. It's the first or second thing I'm checking while I'm trying a new synth. The high resonance behaviour of the filter is the benchmark for the synth. Different people, different needs
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 20 Apr, 2005
In next week's installment, Bones caves and picks up a second hand minitaur for phat ladder bass.BONES wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:56 am Bugger it! I finally caved in and bought it, even though I know I'll run out of uses for it in a week. I was just messing about with it and made this really cool bass patch. I tried to recreate it in DCO-106 but I couldn't get close. It's like a slap bass with resonance, nice and punchy with real depth. I think the difference is in the Unison implementation but it's not the kind of sound I'd ever have expected to get out of Model 84, which is all the push I needed, really.
-
- KVRAF
- 1568 posts since 1 Aug, 2006 from Italy
I love the Moog sound, I have various synths (including the Minitaur) and pedals by this brand, but if I want a solid bass I need to keep the resonance turned down (and that’s what I do most of the time). Being able to turn up the resonance without losing bass is nice and it’s something I miss when using a Moog (or any synth with a similar behaviour of the filter).
It’s a matter of fact that if you want to make a sound with a solid low end and play with the resonance, a Moog filter is not the wisest choice...
It’s a matter of fact that if you want to make a sound with a solid low end and play with the resonance, a Moog filter is not the wisest choice...
- KVRian
- 710 posts since 9 Apr, 2005 from Japan
Good info, thanks.e-crooner wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 12:15 am Found this:
"The MKS-70, JX8P, JX-10 and Alpha-Junos all use the same filter topology: A 2 Pole lowpass in series with a 2 Pole Bandpass. This is quite different than the JX3P, which is an honest to goodness 4 Pole lowpass, as you say, of the same IC manufacture generation of the Juno 60 and Jupiter 8.
...
It's hardwired in series, giving you a 24db/oct Lowpass slope, and 12db/oct Highpass slope. You just don't always notice it because the non-resonant Highpass stage that comes after both has a bass boost circuit."
http://forum.vintagesynth.com/viewtopic ... 2&start=30
In the manual of the free JX-8P emulation PG-8X it also mentions the bass boost:
"The filter section contains a simple 6dB/oct high pass filter
(HPF) and a 24dB/oct low pass filter. The HPF does not have
any dynamic controls and only 4 settings. It should be noted
that '1' is the neutral setting, while '0' acts as a bass boost. '2'
and '3' enable the fixed frequency high pass filter."
Stormchild