KVR Audio

rezoneight · Post by **rezoneight** » Tue May 04, 2021 1:31 am

BONES wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 12:40 pm There is only so much you can do with sound design. You're never going to get a big, deep resonant bassline from anything with a Ladder filter, for example, no matter how good your sound design skills are.

So one of the reasons the Moog ladder does what it does is gain compensation built into the filter so that as the resonance is increased towards self-oscillation the gain is reduced. This is to prevent gain spikes that could present problems.

There is a trick on the Subsequent 37 (and I suspect other Moogs) to get around this to a certain extent. On the Sub37 you can increase the multidrive along with the resonance via the mod wheel using controller mappings. This helps keep a lot of the bass present.

https://youtu.be/xl_24U_ATmM?t=705

For the case of the Sub37 I love his other method. A rubber band.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue May 04, 2021 5:02 am

That's actually not true. Bob Moog explained in a documentary or interview or something I saw on YouTube years ago that it was the trade-off for making the filter at the price-point and power usage necessary for MiniMoog. It was not the filter he'd have used if he hadn't been constrained by price and packaging.

mholloway · Post by **mholloway** » Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 am

The "let's debate or argue or scream at/with BONES regarding the Moog ladder filter" dialog has been going on for about two years now. Maybe longer, maybe less, I dunno, but it's a huge amount of time and posts and wasted energy.

Did we really need yet another thread, about another NON-Moog synth, to become centered around this dialog? Can we please just move on?

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Tue May 04, 2021 6:31 am

He's fine. Just like Moog, he acknowledges the issue and is using the workaround they have provided.

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Tue May 04, 2021 8:04 am

mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 am Did we really need yet another thread, about another NON-Moog synth, to become centered around this dialog? Can we please just move on?

There's certainly no ladder filter in any Junos. There was a diode ladder filter in the System 100.

Also, while I'm pointing out things, the MKS50/JX8/10 use the IR3105 filter which has a pair of 2 pole LPFs in series, not a bandpass. This is from the MKS-50 service manual.

rezoneight · Post by **rezoneight** » Tue May 04, 2021 2:48 pm

BONES wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 5:02 am That's actually not true. Bob Moog explained in a documentary or interview or something I saw on YouTube years ago that it was the trade-off for making the filter at the price-point and power usage necessary for MiniMoog. It was not the filter he'd have used if he hadn't been constrained by price and packaging.

So the ladder filter existed before the Minimoog. And there were multiple designs including the one in the Mini. In the case of the Sub37 its a 6/12/18/24 LPF design. So I'm sure Bob was right, but that doesn't have really much to do with what I wrote

Subsequent 37 sounds different than the Mini and their other gear. But the information I was sharing came from the Moog Music forums over the last decade (first in regards to the Voyager).

rezoneight · Post by **rezoneight** » Tue May 04, 2021 2:49 pm

ghettosynth wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 8:04 am
mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 am Did we really need yet another thread, about another NON-Moog synth, to become centered around this dialog? Can we please just move on?
There's certainly no ladder filter in any Junos. There was a diode ladder filter in the System 100.

Also, while I'm pointing out things, the MKS50/JX8/10 use the IR3105 filter which has a pair of 2 pole LPFs in series, not a bandpass. This is from the MKS-50 service manual.

Diode ladder in the TB303 as well. Just sayin.

rezoneight · Post by **rezoneight** » Tue May 04, 2021 2:51 pm

mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 6:22 am The "let's debate or argue or scream at/with BONES regarding the Moog ladder filter" dialog has been going on for about two years now. Maybe longer, maybe less, I dunno, but it's a huge amount of time and posts and wasted energy.

Did we really need yet another thread, about another NON-Moog synth, to become centered around this dialog? Can we please just move on?

There are 22 pages of posts and a couple of posts on this subject so not sure what you're moaning about but I've said what I had to say

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Tue May 04, 2021 3:20 pm

Anyway ... Softube Model 84 (Juno 106)

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Tue May 04, 2021 4:02 pm

rezoneight wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 2:49 pm Diode ladder in the TB303 as well. Just sayin.

Of course. The 303 is kind of a weirdo though in terms of the evolution of the Roland "filter sound." If I had to guess I would think that it was designed by a different group that didn't get the Roland memo on clean filters. I don't know, maybe someone who's really hot on the 303 history will elaborate.

teilo · Post by **teilo** » Tue May 04, 2021 4:41 pm

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:55 pm Try this...

1. Open Model84 - default preset (which has no name)
2. Modify it
3. Attempt to Save As a new preset

Result: Save As is grayed out.

Seriously Softube? Not only can I not overwrite the factory presets I can't even Save As on the default patch? Are you joking?

I really hope that's a bug and not a conscious design choice.

Almost no one lets you overwrite factory presets. How is this different with Softube? As for saving the Init preset - It's not a preset. It's the initial state of the synth. Choose Add Preset instead. Problem solved. What's the big deal?

ghettosynth · Post by **ghettosynth** » Tue May 04, 2021 4:43 pm

Aloysius wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:20 pm Anyway ... Softube Model 84 (Juno 106)

My demo is running out, the GAS has subsided. No filter FM input on the filter module is weak sauce.

mholloway · Post by **mholloway** » Tue May 04, 2021 4:51 pm

ghettosynth wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Aloysius wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:20 pm Anyway ... Softube Model 84 (Juno 106)
My demo is running out, the GAS has subsided. No filter FM input on the filter module is weak sauce.

Same here, sadly. It looks great, it sounds great, it has me convinced that it's 100% a "Juno 106" -- but that's the problem. I don't need a Juno-106. I have nothing against them, whatsoever -- in fact I like them a lot. But when I already have a plugin folder absolute brimming with Roland emulations including (at least) one Juno 106, two Jupiter 8s, and (at least) one (probably more) Juno-60s, it's just too hard to care about grabbing another. Especially for such a relatively simple synth.

Anyhow, I think Softube is doing a great job with the actual emulation, I just wish they would pick synths that hadn't already been emulated a dozen times. Minimoog and Juno-106...... how about an Xpander, softube?

trusampler · Post by **trusampler** » Tue May 04, 2021 5:10 pm

Does Softube vsti not allow for program changes / assign midi controllers to change patches? Pretty basic design if so,I'm wondering how guys would perform live with this synth,without program changes.

rezoneight · Post by **rezoneight** » Tue May 04, 2021 7:11 pm

mholloway wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 4:51 pm
ghettosynth wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 4:43 pm
Aloysius wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 3:20 pm Anyway ... Softube Model 84 (Juno 106)
My demo is running out, the GAS has subsided. No filter FM input on the filter module is weak sauce.
Same here, sadly. It looks great, it sounds great, it has me convinced that it's 100% a "Juno 106" -- but that's the problem. I don't need a Juno-106. I have nothing against them, whatsoever -- in fact I like them a lot. But when I already have a plugin folder absolute brimming with Roland emulations including (at least) one Juno 106, two Jupiter 8s, and (at least) one (probably more) Juno-60s, it's just too hard to care about grabbing another. Especially for such a relatively simple synth.

Anyhow, I think Softube is doing a great job with the actual emulation, I just wish they would pick synths that hadn't already been emulated a dozen times. Minimoog and Juno-106...... how about an Xpander, softube?

Low hanging fruit. Xpander certainly isn't that