No love for Crave EQ?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Tue May 11, 2021 10:47 pm

BONES wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:30 pm
MogwaiBoy wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:32 pm
Mind Riot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:46 pm
A 10db boost at 10k can be very revealing and
This is what I did with CraveEQ and ProQ. The rebuttal is "Well I don't hear this inferiority you speak of". You don't notice it until you A/B.
If the difference is at 10kHz and you have to boost the shit out of it to even hear it, who cares? That's like 0.01% of the sound and you wouldn't hear it over a PA anyway. Life's too short to sweat the little stuff like this.
I hope you're not a plugin developer.

The drive and ambition to make plugs better using every last bit of computational power we have at our disposal is what has given us the unprecedented Golden Age of DIY music production we all now enjoy.

But for the record, I don't just hear the difference when boosting pink noise 10db at 10k. I hear it whenever I boost the highs on anything at any point and I get the benefit of EQuality being more than just another EQ. The tests just confirmed for me that I am hearing a real difference and that I'm not just making something up to justify the money I spent on an EQ to myself.

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GRRRRRRR!
11580 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue May 11, 2021 11:20 pm

Well, I suppose if you are the only person you have to please, that's fine. Personally, I have better, more important things to do with my time than prove that there is substance to my personal preference. The fact of preferring it has always been enough for me. Mind you, EQ sounds like EQ to me and I have absolutely no preference as to which one I use. Whatever comes with my host software will do me 100% of the time. It's something I try not to use unless I really, really have to.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, Zoom U24 | Studio One | JP6K, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Knifonium, Thorn, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 12:40 am

BONES wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:20 pm
Well, I suppose if you are the only person you have to please, that's fine. Personally, I have better, more important things to do with my time than prove that there is substance to my personal preference. The fact of preferring it has always been enough for me. Mind you, EQ sounds like EQ to me and I have absolutely no preference as to which one I use. Whatever comes with my host software will do me 100% of the time. It's something I try not to use unless I really, really have to.
If doing things that way facilitates you making music without unnecessary worries, then godspeed to you sir. :tu:

I've always been curious about the technical side of music production, so I find this sort of thing interesting in its own right. Just like cars, some guys are into cars and fix up a nice muscle car in their garage, and some guys just want to buy something fast and not have to work on it. Not everybody who's into something wants to become technically versed in how it works, but they can still be just as good a driver as the more mechanically inclined guys.

KVRAF
3797 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder

Post Wed May 12, 2021 1:58 am

BONES wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:30 pm
MogwaiBoy wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:32 pm
Mind Riot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:46 pm
A 10db boost at 10k can be very revealing and
This is what I did with CraveEQ and ProQ. The rebuttal is "Well I don't hear this inferiority you speak of". You don't notice it until you A/B.
If the difference is at 10kHz and you have to boost the shit out of it to even hear it, who cares? That's like 0.01% of the sound and you wouldn't hear it over a PA anyway. Life's too short to sweat the little stuff like this.
This is true. Pro-Q is perfectly fine.

KVRAF
2261 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 2:55 am

Mind Riot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:46 pm
So there's a little something going on under the hood with some of these EQs, and a little bit of saturation is one of the most likely culprits.
Nah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebBqP2PteAQ

KVRAF
2261 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 3:12 am

mxbf wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:59 pm
I would also say that it’s a reasonable assumption to make that a setting called “Analog” might introduce something subtle to the algorithm. Perhaps even subtly an emulation of analog saturation. Then again, it could also just be a different EQ curve or something technical I’m too stupid to figure out.
Different phase shift.

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GRRRRRRR!
11580 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed May 12, 2021 7:18 am

Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 12:40 am
Not everybody who's into something wants to become technically versed in how it works, but they can still be just as good a driver as the more mechanically inclined guys.
There are degrees. I think anyone who does anything should understand how it works. If you own a car, you should be able to keep it running yourself. Know how to change the oil, how to change a tyre and how to diagnose an engine problem. Even if you don't actually do it, at least you'll know what the mechanic is talking about when he gives you a $2000 quote for repairs.

I think I probably know at least as much as you do about music production. The essential difference is that I reject most of it, preferring to trust my ears and common sense.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, Zoom U24 | Studio One | JP6K, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Knifonium, Thorn, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 3:03 pm

BONES wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:18 am
I think I probably know at least as much as you do about music production. The essential difference is that I reject most of it, preferring to trust my ears and common sense.
How do you know how much a total stranger knows about music production, or whether or not they trust their ears and use common sense just like you do?

KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pm

Passing Bye wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 2:55 am
Mind Riot wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 8:46 pm
So there's a little something going on under the hood with some of these EQs, and a little bit of saturation is one of the most likely culprits.
Nah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebBqP2PteAQ
Not sure the point you're making here. Bog standard parametric EQs cramp near Nyquist, this can be mitigated or solved entirely by including oversampling, but they still won't null in the high end with something like Pro Q3, and EQuality in particular not only wouldn't null with any standard parametric (none of which had oversampling when I did the tests) but also wouldn't null with Pro Q, another high end EQ that wouldn't null with standard EQs.

EQuality and Pro Q have something else going on, and even adding oversampling to EQ8 doesn't put it on the same level, even though it improves it greatly (and other stock DAW EQs should follow its example).

In the video when the oversampled EQ8 doesn't null with Pro Q3 Dan says himself that people who insist that all digital EQs are the same can just admit they're wrong now (heh).

Um, what are we disagreeing about here? I'm kind of confused. You just don't think it's saturation, is that it?

KVRAF
2261 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 4:07 pm

Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:36 pm
Um, what are we disagreeing about here? I'm kind of confused. You just don't think it's saturation, is that it?
Yes, you were expanding on your own test which led to some of your claims and I posted one that just goes little deeper showing what else is contributing to the difference without even going into saturation aspect, in hope it maybe can demystify "secret sauce" and "little something going on under the hood" for yourself and anyone reading, like they didn't use exactly the same algorithms, as revealing or secret that sound, so they aren't going to sound the same unfortunately...

KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 4:11 pm

Thank you for the explanation, it can be hard to get all of that from "Nah."

Dan's videos are always top notch. Educational and entertaining.

I tested out CraveEQ against EQuality when I heard about it. Crave has this open airiness to the high end when you boost it that even EQuality didn't have, and I was pretty surprised, because I had never encountered any EQ that beat EQuality's top end. Not even stuff that was made for it, like Maag Audio's EQ4 with the Air band.

But then I noticed that if I boosted ten db with Crave and only four or five with EQuality, they sounded virtually identical. Not sure what to make of that, but I didn't buy Crave that day and still haven't.
Last edited by Mind Riot on Wed May 12, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
2261 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 4:19 pm

Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:11 pm
That's a very nuanced viewpoint, it can be hard to get all of that from "Nah."
Sorry, I didn't had much time to answer and Dan Worrall said and showed everything better than I ever could.

KVRist
100 posts since 3 Aug, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 4:20 pm

Passing Bye wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:19 pm
Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:11 pm
That's a very nuanced viewpoint, it can be hard to get all of that from "Nah."
Sorry, I didn't had much time to answer and Dan Worrall said and showed everything better than I ever could.
No, I was being pissy. Bad day, sorry.

KVRAF
2261 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Wed May 12, 2021 4:27 pm

Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Passing Bye wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:19 pm
Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:11 pm
That's a very nuanced viewpoint, it can be hard to get all of that from "Nah."
Sorry, I didn't had much time to answer and Dan Worrall said and showed everything better than I ever could.
No, I was being pissy. Bad day, sorry.
No, you are right, it's hard really to get the point when someone answers like that, probably you are busy too and plenty of stuff was fighting for your attention and dedication, anyways, there's really great stuff being posted and points made, we all are learning and establishing what we actually know questioning our own beliefs and knowledge, let's continue.

Have a blast. :hug:

User avatar
GRRRRRRR!
11580 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed May 12, 2021 5:52 pm

Mind Riot wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 3:03 pm
How do you know how much a total stranger knows about music production, or whether or not they trust their ears and use common sense just like you do?
It seemed to be you who was making assumptions, I just went along with it. Although from what I've read here, you are not someone who trusts their ears.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, Zoom U24 | Studio One | JP6K, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Knifonium, Thorn, Equator, VG Carbon | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

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