Chord progressions and song structure

[echoe]

I've always made music with intuition, but never really known anything about theory. I'm wanting to learn a little theory to make things easier.

One thing I am having a lot of difficulty with is that I seem to be able to make part of a song, but not a whole piece of music. I can get a chord progression going and write a melody over the top etc, but one thing that trips me up, is once I have played that progression a little while, how do I move it to the next part of the song?

For simplicity's sake, say I have a song in the key of C Major and I am using a I – V – vi – IV progression once that part of the song has "ended" are there any tips on smoothly transitioning to another part of the song? Do I start a different chord progression in that key? Or is there a good formula to work out another chord that I can jump to based on the last one that was played in the previous progression? Should they be different for things like the chorus and bridge etc?

This is probably very basic stuff, but I never learned it so any patience and assistance in giving some tips would be great. I realise it's a broad question, but I guess the crux of my question is where do I go after a chord progression, how do I link it to the next part of a song?

Thank you

[sjm]

I think that a great way to find your own answers to this question is to look at existing songs, and see what tricks they use to break out of a chord progression. Some songs never do btw.

It's a very open-ended question, and you've already provided one possible answer yourself (try another chord progression in the same key). You could also modulate to another key and then play the same thing in that key, or something different entirely. There isn't so much a formula as "some things are easier to get working than others" (and painting by numbers is a bit bland).

The easier something is to get it to work, the more frequently you will come across it in popular music.

[trewq]

Intuition suggests that if that progression is the basic theme, then first explore the simple variations on it.

Start by substituting only one chord with another at a time having only one note that's changed. For example V can become a v, or a bvl dim, and so on.

The more branches that grow on that tree .....

[Musicologo]

If you're trying to make SONGS, then you should study theories that apply to this object. Have you studied songwriting and reading how expert songwriters craft songs? I'd strongly advise the book "Tunesmith" by Jimmy Webb.

But, long story short, to help you to start: a SONG is a story, usually shaped as a poem, telling us something, giving us a message. In a well-crafted song there is a relationship between the words and the music: the music is there to amplify the meaning of the text. When this doesn't happen, something fails and you risk your message to be misunderstood.

Hence, the pitches and rhythms of your TUNE should be closely related to your song. They should follow the natural contours of the speech. PROSODY and RHETORIC are your central concepts here, look them up.

Finally, when you have a strong TUNE shaped to serve your text, the harmony beneath it, should follow. Hence, you pick up your chords and their functions accordingly to the message of your text, It shouldn't be at random. The concept of WORD PAINTING is useful here as well.

So make those questions to yourself: WHY am I using I-V-vi-IV in the first place? Are these chords supporting the message I want to convey? Is ending a phrase in IV (which is an unstable place) matching my lyrics? For instance, imagine your verse goes something like "You're my dream, the reason I wake up in the morning and I really, really love you!", this is very stable and emphatic, then why would you end up this phrase in a vi-IV?... On the other hand, if your verse starts "I love you so much, but you don't seem to care about me anymore", THEN the end of your sentence could indeed go to an unstable chord, like, even a minor iv...

Concluding: in a well-crafted song, the lyrics should be your guide. Even if you begin with an instrumental tune to help you out, then re-write the melody and chords according to the lyrical content and that will make your song stronger. Read what experts songwriters have been doing, go study Songwriting (which is the real "song theory"). I also recommend the coursera course of Pat Pattison (it's free). In this course you can see him developing a song from beginning to end ("Hobo wind") and how he choses the melody and chords, there are processes to make these things work! Have fun!

https://www.coursera.org/lecture/songwr ... se-1-pi80J

[xbow]

I too have a rather intuitive approach to songwriting. I think I have a good understanding of the music theory basics, but I do not consciously rely on theory to come up with melodies and chord progressions. More often, I will use it to analyze what I have done after the fact.

I think Musiclogo's post is excellent, because it seems to describe what I am doing rather intuitively. I will definitely check out that book.

What drives me, let's say, from a verse to a bridge, and a bridge to a chorus, is the feeling that the melodic phrase I have so far wants to go there. I mostly come up with the melody first, and then find the chords that suit it (subconsciously, it is probably my understanding of musical traditions, including chords, that has inspired me in the first place).

So have you tried to find one single note, or a short melodic phrase, or the next line in your lyrics, that would follow naturally after the 4 chords, but is different enough to not be a repetition?

I would be interested to hear from others what their approach is. I am not in the "music theory is useless" camp, quite the contrary. However, the idea of deriving a new composition from roman notations of chords is rather alien to me .

[schmerzschlag]

I am not against music theory or theory in general, but I do not tend to construct things via theoretical approach. I'd rather have tools to fall back on, when things do not work or do not happen. So there the theory comes in. I like to have options and I like learning in general. Music theory can be a nice tool or a way to give myself those options. Up until then I go by gut. Writing music, writing songs is basically telling stories and that is something I have quite a grip on or at least a clue about due to my actual profession.
But we all have "story" inside ourselves, as long as we are not deprived from storytelling itself. It's just a matter of finding it, trusting it, but also developing it via learning about tools and options.

And to also give some sort of actual tip or advice: I like the courses made by Jay Allen (a.k.a. Jason Allen; you can find him on Udemy or Punkademic). He has a quite nice course about structure, which is not going too deep into detail, but also does more than scratching the surface. Those "for electronic musicians"-Courses are good. His University-style courses do look deeper into things. Can recommend it, as long as you are not doing this for decades, I think. I would buy it, but maybe wait until it's on some sort of deal or sale, which happen at times.

https://www.udemy.com/course/music-theo ... structure/

[Digitaldawn]

Check out hook theory one and two. Also studying a LOT of songs in the genres you want to produce in can build your pallet.

[Alamo300]

Study other songs & extract what gives you belly tinglings. Done

[jancivil]

What drives me, let's say, from a verse to a bridge, and a bridge to a chorus, is the feeling that the melodic phrase I have so far wants to go there. -

Yeah, I think talking about form completely outside of melody, in song craft is not the most fertile soil. Then, what's the idea? "is there a formula for..."
is a bit like asking for a paint-by-numbers map. What's the idea? What were the reasons for the choices in that progression?
What does that root movement do for you exactly, what is the effect emotionally or whatever. What happens if you go to Bb off the F?
There is no 'next' absent an idea (maybe what you want to do now is analyze and emulate extant music). Chord progressions in the abstract, well the exact same thing could be thrilling or be wholly affectless.

[ecsmix]

Hi Echoe and Everybody.
How are you?

I have a song in the key of C Major and I am using a I – V – vi – IV progression once that part of the song has "ended" are there any tips on smoothly transitioning to another part of the song?

Yes there are several things you could do.

1. Do the same thing: I – V – vi – IV on the relative minor, Am (use this progression on verse and major on chorus. Am - Em - F - Dm
2. Sub diatonic chords: I =III=vi, ii=IV
3. Use secondary dominats and ii-V-I
4. Borrow Chords from parallel modes, C eolian, C dorian, C lydian, etc...example: I V vi ivm , I V vi ivm bVII vi I
5. Use Chord extensions

This video is pretty cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTHPjw6N4Hg

Another one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxV3iXhU5BU

[excuse me please]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc9ZCVuMvQ4

Which famous song starts with the same chord progression as the chorus of the song above? The same melody line as well.

[shawshawraw]

I roughly remember the "Because I am happy" tune has similar harmonic movements, but def not the same melody line.

[excuse me please]

I roughly remember the "Because I am happy" tune has similar harmonic movements, but def not the same melody line.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hzrDeceEKc

[surreal]

Intresting topic

[shawshawraw]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6hzrDeceEKc

Are you sure? Wonderwall stays strictly in the scale notes.