All About MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE)

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jules99 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:43 pm I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11. Compared to Logic, for example the implementation of both MPE editing and MPE modulation is much deeper. As Bitwig is moving more into focus for many sound designers, I'd love to find out more not only about the possibilities, but the workflow. The more I work with MPE in Wavetable and Simpler or modulate effects parameters through mappings with Expression Control the more I'm sure we've only scratched the surface.

Now that the lid that was Live is finally blown off, I'm really hoping for new controllers, new instruments, even new effects that really highlight the possibilities. Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
I’d be curious to hear your take on Live 11 v Bitwig 3. I ditched Live when I found out that they ignored MPE and polyphonic aftertouch in v 10. I was sick of waiting for what seemed to be something that was never coming. I’m happy with Bitwig, but I miss Live’s ability to create an audio loop using Looper and have the length of the loop dictate the tempo of the project. Nice trick for creating ambient music where you later bring in a rhythmic aspect.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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zerocrossing wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:26 pm
I’d be curious to hear your take on Live 11 v Bitwig 3. I ditched Live when I found out that they ignored MPE and polyphonic aftertouch in v 10. I was sick of waiting for what seemed to be something that was never coming. I’m happy with Bitwig, but I miss Live’s ability to create an audio loop using Looper and have the length of the loop dictate the tempo of the project. Nice trick for creating ambient music where you later bring in a rhythmic aspect.
Since I own, use, and regularly test these three DAWs (Ableton, Logic and Bitwig), I got curious: how is MPE implemented?

So I did a little test: Using the Seaboard block and the latest update of Equator2 and its standard preset, I played the same little chord progression in each DAW:

- Logic 10.6.1
- Ableton Suite 11.0.1
- Bitwig 3.3.6

Test system was a 2016 Macbook Pro with macOS Catalina 10.15.7 installed.

One thing, I attempted, where all of them failed completely, is MPE-Clip export.
I exported the recorded MIDI clips with their respective MPE data in each DAW and attempted to import them in the other DAWs.
- At least between Ableton and Logic, there happens "something", as in there is MPE modulation audible, but nothing can be edited in the clip.

- Bitwig creates individual MIDI tracks when you import from Logic Pro. No modulation data visibile or audible.

Also, Bitwig refused any pitch bend data. I tried the scripts for Seaboard GRAND and Seaboard RISE as there was no Seaboard BLOCK script, but neither worked for pitch bend. The other MPE dimensions worked just fine.

This worked out if the box in both Ableton and Logic. I may have to fiddle more with different pitch bend amount settings in Bitwig.

On the other hand, Bitwig is the only one of the three DAWs that displays note pitch bend without any secondary view options (Expressions tab in Ableton Live, Show Automation in Clip View in Log).

Logic is still pretty old school in its MPE data depiction. In said Automation view, you can switch through the different MIDI channels and their respective MPE data (Brightness, Velocity, Pitchbend, Aftertouch), but there is no visual relation between each channel and the actual MIDI notes in the clip.

On the other hand, Logic seemed to have the least amount of trouble with the Seaboard. No additional controller setting, no second MPE mode, it just worked.


Since this is not a dedicated weeklong test with more DAWs and more controllers, I don't think there is enough to actually draw a conclusion from.

One thing I can say is that in order for MPE to actually be wider spread (besides hopefully having many more controllers to choose from), there is still a long way to go in these three DAWs. I have not heard or seen a deeper integration in any other DAW, but this would be for the community here to answer.

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Really interesting about the ability to import/export MPE MIDI clips. You'd think it would be straightforward, no? :)
As far as MPE integration goes, Live is kind of annoying in that it drops the MPE channel info in favor of its own round-robin voice number scheme. This prevents creative use of hardware. For example if you have an MPE controller using channels 2-8 and another using 9-15, and you want to split these out to a multi-timbral synth like a TX81Z or something weird like that, you simply can't do it in Live. A weird edge case, for sure, but our entire industry is moved forward by inappropriate and weird ideas!
I like Bitwig's ability to really easily apply MPE to almost anything, and it's nice that all their internal synths are MPE capbable, unlike Live's.
Cubase is another to look at - it has pretty sophisticated per-note capabilities.

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jules99 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:43 pm I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11.
....
Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Regarding in-depth article - I covered a bunch of Live's MPE stuff here: http://mpe.design that you may find useful. Looking forward to it!
Regarding "transitional" technology - I don't see it that way. MIDI 2.0's top two benefits are extra resolution and better inter-device communication. Devices and software will have the ability to better communicate what they can do, so they can auto-configure and adapt. I think the biggest benefit of MPE is that it enhances music interaction.

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pnyboer wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:38 pm
jules99 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:43 pm I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11.
....
Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Regarding in-depth article - I covered a bunch of Live's MPE stuff here: http://mpe.design that you may find useful. Looking forward to it!
Regarding "transitional" technology - I don't see it that way. MIDI 2.0's top two benefits are extra resolution and better inter-device communication. Devices and software will have the ability to better communicate what they can do, so they can auto-configure and adapt. I think the biggest benefit of MPE is that it enhances music interaction.
The article I wrote is out.
https://www.bonedo.de/artikel/einzelans ... lasse.html

English machine translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... lasse.html

Your website was actually one of the first sources, I came upon during research. I did include a link to it when I handed in my version of the article, but it seems that they forgot to include quite a few of my links when transferring it into their backend. I've let them know that these need to be added.

Besides your presets, the ones that are included in Live 11 and Equator 2 I've found Newfangled Audio's Generate to be especially responsive to MPE input.

I'm really hoping that more MPE-capable controllers at a more affordable cost will be available soon or else this beautiful technology will never take off. Since MPE is not widely available on controllers, demand and therefore availablitly for presets for MPE-ready synths like Serum or Pigments is quite low. Hence many who do get a Seaboard, Linnstrument or Sensel Morph never really have that "Wow"-Moment of expressive playing in their favorite synths. Here is to hoping this will change soon.

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Now we need an article about MPE controllers... Soon there will be new kids on the block like Osmose and Embodme...

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Tj Shredder wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:01 am Now we need an article about MPE controllers... Soon there will be new kids on the block like Osmose and Embodme...
I have both on pre-order... not much point to have an article when they are not yet available :)

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Also, these two controllers seem very intriguing in what they're offering but in terms of price and availability neither is made of the mass market. It remains to be seen if the likes of Novation, Akai or NI will adapt MPE.

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i only export MPE from Reaper 6.x to Cubase Pro 11, without any problems.
i have also bitwig studio 3.3.7, ableton live 11 suite. didn't check those.
mainly Reaper is sometimes a sketch DAW, and strangely i choose Cubase Pro 11, not bitiwg.. it is not strange, it has it's reasons..

but never did perform a real test. the eports/imports i made, or spot on. so..

i must research it, but Reaper and Cubase, are pretty close, what they do with MPE (besides of course the Note Expression in Cubase).

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pnyboer wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:38 pm
jules99 wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:43 pm I have been working on an in-depth article on all things MPE in Live 11.
....
Or I might be wrong, since adaptation has been rather slow, and MPE is just a transitional technology towards MIDI 2.0?
Regarding in-depth article - I covered a bunch of Live's MPE stuff here: http://mpe.design that you may find useful. Looking forward to it!
Regarding "transitional" technology - I don't see it that way. MIDI 2.0's top two benefits are extra resolution and better inter-device communication. Devices and software will have the ability to better communicate what they can do, so they can auto-configure and adapt. I think the biggest benefit of MPE is that it enhances music interaction.
hi,
i am new to this thread.
thanks for your link. tell me what alternative to MIDI 2.0 would you recommend?

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pnyboer wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:30 pm For example if you have an MPE controller using channels 2-8 and another using 9-15, and you want to split these out to a multi-timbral synth like a TX81Z or something weird like that, you simply can't do it in Live.
I think you can do it in the pre-11 way, with multiple MIDI tracks.

Also, you achieve similar things using Random set to Alt (round-robin instead of randomizing) and Chain zones with External Instrument instances, even if your hardware doesn't allow splitting channels.

There are M4L devices that deal with changing and manipulating mono/polyphony that you can play with in Racks as well.

Live 11 has new devices with MIDI output drop-down menus you can simply copy-paste into any other device, pretty sure you could always grab MIDI input (at least there are many devices made for Push and Launchpad).

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Dimensional explorers! :D

Let's hear some MPE sounds. Post some examples. Stuff you've been working on. Too much text and not enough sound in this thread! :party:

I've just finished this patch, which for now is called Persian Reed. It's supposed to have a flavour of some mystical, long lost reed instrument, perhaps something that would be played by a musician from Atlantis. ha!

Two wavetables used for the main body of the sound (plus noise), and three wavetables for the tone that comes in via the Y-Axis.

This is where MPE shines for me: being able to play a drone and solo on top of it. Everything, every note is independent.

https://soundcloud.com/electric-himalay ... rsian-reed
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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Gaz Williams the mighty Geert Bevin on his show recently. Among other things, he wrote the first MPE specification. Loads of bits about all the projects he has been involved in, writing the firmware for the Linnstruments, working with Moog on Animoog and Model 15 and so much more!

https://youtu.be/SEAp_ffF8EY

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a dimensional exploration;

one instance of New Fangled Audio Generate, played with Seabord Block + 2 Lightpad M blocks, full description at SC;

https://soundcloud.com/user-873737123/g ... me-travels

(i am not sure anymore; the 2 lightpad M blocks a connected seperately from the Seabord block, it has it's reasons.. but will it generate (...) overlapping midi channels? i mentioned in the comment in SC, but i know i am not sure anymore, i have to check it. beside the point is;

one MPE patch from scratch, as all my presets/patches for soft synths are, can deliver with MPE quite a range...

yes. yes. my style.. live recording, no post-production/post-editing, so with happy accidents? or unhappy accidents..??

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Thank you! Very usefull topic :)

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