DAW with best arrangment track?

[machinesworking]

As far as the original question is concerned, it's DP by a mile to me. Chunks allows one to save parts of a song outside of the arrangement to drag and drop back in at any time etc. There's no conductor track arrange tool like in Cubase, Logic, Reason etc. but selection tools along with markers make that point moot, it works just the same. The downside I suppose compared to the others is having the make room for replacing longer parts with shorter ones in the middle of a song etc. compared to the elastic movement you get with blocks in Reason or the arranger track in Logic.

[jens]

Chunks allows one to save parts of a song outside of the arrangement to drag and drop back in at any time etc.

I faintly remember reading good things about DP's chunks years ago - in what way does it differ from Reason's Blocks? Both basically are references to addtional timelines, right?

[Danilo Villanova]

Cakewalk.

[machinesworking]

Chunks allows one to save parts of a song outside of the arrangement to drag and drop back in at any time etc.

I faintly remember reading good things about DP's chunks years ago - in what way does it differ from Reason's Blocks? Both basically are references to addtional timelines, right?

I have to look into Reasons Blocks, I upgraded from 2.5 to 11 a while ago for the VST3 AU version.

Chunks are basically whole projects within projects. They have their own timeline, conductor track, they can even have their own plug ins. Chunks can be loaded into Chunks, so you can use them to separate out parts of a song or movies score etc.
With most of these solutions you're basically getting a container that allows easy moving of parts of a song, so the chorus can be it's own Chunk etc. but it all lives in the same timeline, Chunks are outside the current timeline with their own conductor (arrange, whatever your DAW calls the main controller track etc. for tempo, time signature, etc.) Which can be imported into the song or not.

It's a great idea that I still don't fully get why other DAWs don't copy? They almost all allow you to open more than one project at a time, import between them etc. but it's not integrated like it is in DP, where it's part of the DNA. Another example of where it comes in handy is with various stages of a song, you can have the MIDI and soft synth version as a Chunk in the project, render it to audio, copy it as another Chunk with none of the original plug ins just the rendered audio for adding mixing plug ins etc, and mastering. So your open project has super quick access to the finished audio song, the MIDI version, the separated out verse, chorus, bridge, break, extended dance remix etc. etc.

This is why beaten up by the big boys DP still gets used in film work by a decent amount of people, themes in movies as separate chunks you can drag into a timeline that can be 90 minutes long etc.

[jens]

That sounds very much like Reaper's PIP (project in project) - it's way more powerful than Reason's Blocks but less immediate too, at least in Reaper...

Each of Reason's (maximally 32) "Blocks" has it own timeline, but shares the same tracks with all other timelines - in "Song" mode you can use any combination of Blocks and normal clips - the clips that sit in the Blocks are greyed out and can't be edited in Song mode, but they can be muted. You can put Song-clips (of arbitrary length and position) on top of these greyed out Block-clips and they will play instead, which is mightily powerful. Any change you make to a Block will be reflected anywhere in the song where the Block is used.

Each Block has an end-cursor and every clip that sits behind this cursor on the Block's timeline will not appear in Song mode. That means within each Block you basically have unlimited space to store material you currently don't want to use but want to keep.

The Blocks can be converted into normal song clips - these could then be stored in additional Blocks, so that way you could save whole complete alternative arrangements that you can either play back in Block mode whenever you want or also could bring back into Song mode at any time.

It's simple and brilliant.

[melomood]

I like to play it out in my mind brain

[ghettosynth]

That sounds very much like Reaper's PIP (project in project) - it's way more powerful than Reason's Blocks but less immediate probably too - in Reaper it certainly is...

This. The point that I was making earlier is that what you want depends on what causes you friction. I love Reaper, but I seldom use its PIP feature. I learned a long time ago from my hardware days that my "music" is neither linear sequence based nor purely clip/pattern based. Live is pretty good for hybrid approaches, but Reason made just the right choices that makes it smooth for me to finish tracks. If want to play them live later with different arrangements, then Reason is not a good choice for that, Live and/or Maschine is the way to go.

It's simple and brilliant.

Exactly.

So, the question you should ask is what is your goal with this "arranger" feature. In some cases, being able to arrange completed small projects in a timeline is definitely the way to go. I can see this as a very nice way to arrange collections of completed snippets into a mix. I have done this for some of my "music." However, I just do it with Traktor and use the rendered tracks, but, if you wanted to change them in their new context, having the source is more powerful.

On the other hand, I seldom want to have patterns with their own plugins when I'm doing some house/techno track. You want a cohesive feel over the timeline of the track but you still want to be able to work in chunks. I do, however, want to be able to use the pattern structure to put the track together and then ignore the pattern structure when I'm playing certain parts. It's fantastic to make several variations of a pattern in different blocks and then quickly change your mind about which block works in better in each part by just choosing it from a drop down. I don't want to have to drag in new projects or clips, or even reference anything on disk for that. Each block is a part of the project and can be referenced any place that you paint blocks in on the arranger track.

So a common workflow is to just start with a basic pattern, paint in the sections, build out the track with some linear parts and pieces, and then go in and create different variations of your blocks so that you can build more interest in the track with some variety.

People often talk about getting stuck on just a pattern and not being able to turn it into a track, Blocks are the fastest way that I've found around that problem.

[machinesworking]

That sounds very much like Reaper's PIP (project in project) - it's way more powerful than Reason's Blocks but less immediate too, at least in Reaper...

Yeah I never even messed with PIP in Reaper, the only real use for it I could think of is CPU management, it's certainly not as useful to me as Chunks or the way you describe Blocks in Reason, which sound closer to Live or Bitwigs way of sharing a timeline between Session Clips and a traditional arrange page.

All this stuff is great information, I'm guilty of looking around a lot at other solutions, but it's useful to know what's out there. My workflow may not suite all DAWs. There's the argument that they're all converging, but I wouldn't want to record a rock band into FL Studio and I wouldn't want to make a dance track in Mixbuss.

[andypryce]

If you have pick up notes or tails no arrangement track is good( At least the ones I have checked)
The DAW that figures it out will have the best implementation I guess.
As for Cubase, it might just be the most sophisticated DAW around but it needs new brains to bring its workflow and UX to 2021.

[machinesworking]

If you have pick up notes or tails no arrangement track is good( At least the ones I have checked)
The DAW that figures it out will have the best implementation I guess.
As for Cubase, it might just be the most sophisticated DAW around but it needs new brains to bring its workflow and UX to 2021.

I wouldn't call it sophisticated more like feature rich, but I know what you mean anyway. Logic definitely gets the prize of the old DAWs that at least has some modern UX ideas. Mostly though I'm still upset about the way they decided to bury the Tools in two commands, not my favorite idea for sure compared to the speed of old timey days.

In terms of looped audio and midi, the DAWs with Clips in them have solutions for pickup notes. It's one of the advantages of clip based looping, having the ability to loop the main part with pickup notes or bars that fire only the first time the clip is launched.

[jens]

If you have pick up notes or tails no arrangement track is good

Reason is, and that is for me one of - if not THE - the reasons why it's so great - it solves the problem with its brilliant dual-layer method - whuch is such a simple, elegant and versatile solution.

Of course it would be super easy for hosts with a more convential arrangement-function such as Studio One and Reaper to solve this issue by creating configurable rules on when to move, delete, copy and paste what and that none of them have been doing that within years after they originally implemented the basic feature, basically tells you all you need to know.
I think most DAWs have a rather knee-jerk path of development - and it shows. Just imagine them developing (say) cars instead of DAWs .

[jens]

So, the question you should ask is what is your goal with this "arranger" feature. .

I concur.

People often talk about getting stuck on just a pattern and not being able to turn it into a track, Blocks are the fastest way that I've found around that problem.

Yes, same here!

[jens]

Yeah I never even messed with PIP in Reaper, the only real use for it I could think of is CPU management, it's certainly not as useful to me as Chunks

I am relieved to hear that - so it's still something for me to look forward to checking out in the future.

[jonljacobi]

The same old question in another form, with no single answer. Most of the DAWs have demos. Download and see which one you like the best.

[jens]

The same old question in another form, with no single answer. Most of the DAWs have demos. Download and see which one you like the best.

I think you will find that it is entirely up to his own discretion how to proceed. Besides, who ever specified that there should be just a "single answer"?
He or whoever else in interested in this can make of the varied and extensive information that this thread brought up whatever he/she decides.

The problem I have with your post is that it is almost impossible to reply inoffensively to it, while this thread so far has been one of the few here that has been peaceful and informative throughout.
So what was your purpose when you wrote it?