I ran into a voicing today, and the best name I can think of is an Am7b5add11:
D
G
Eb
A
To me, I feel a tendency of D going down to C. And then C going down to Bb on another root. Along this thought, I figured I had to treat it as a ii in minor. That D going to C somehow sounds like walking down the diminished scale, and I also feel the need of a V sound somewhere while resolving it to Gm, the tonic minor I assumed.
Here's the link to this voice leading I have tried on keys (sorry for the external link; but is there a better way to upload short mp3 files on this forum for illustration purposes?): https://www.sndup.net/8w42
Are there any other possibilities?
m7b5add11 chord?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
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- KVRist
- 489 posts since 24 Nov, 2008
I can't go into any voice leading possibility, but you should check out those accidentals left to you from that pool of notes (Am11b5b9), if you haven't already - F, F#, E, or Ab.
A chord or 2 with one of those notes may give you some more ideas.
A chord or 2 with one of those notes may give you some more ideas.
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- KVRer
- 2 posts since 15 Dec, 2020
Just tried it on guitar, i really feel you need to go trough a V chord too. For the voice leading i see something like, Eb going to D G going to F# and D going to C, not playing the A (but Ab in the bass works well). And G-7 to finish (G D F Bb).
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Well, one thing you may want to see here is that you don't have to find a tertially-built name for the thing.
D isn't part of that block name, it sounds like attention to voice-leading, so if it ends up satisfying as A Eb G C, it's a 4-3 voice-leading move.
In terms of nomenclature, that's what you're talking about, rather than add-anything. An add 11 indicates a third is sounding at the time.
D isn't part of that block name, it sounds like attention to voice-leading, so if it ends up satisfying as A Eb G C, it's a 4-3 voice-leading move.
In terms of nomenclature, that's what you're talking about, rather than add-anything. An add 11 indicates a third is sounding at the time.
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- KVRist
- 108 posts since 14 Jan, 2020
if you permit me to cheat and add an extra bass note you could look at it as Cm6 or F7 (sidenote: it's not uncommon to hear of jazz players treating a minor ii-V this way e.g. playing F7 or C minor language over Am7b5).
spicier choices could be B7alt or Ebmaj7#11 (although doubling the Eb in this case is fairly ugly imo)
but yeah G minorish stuff is my first thought. you could probably massage it to sound like it's in Bb or Eb or C minor.
and like jan says you don't have to name every vertical stack of notes. another example, you could go A Eb G D -> A Eb F# D. in that context the horizontal motion makes me just think of G as a suspension or non-chord-tone or whatever en route to that minor-key-dominant sound, rather than as part of some clunky chord structure like Dsus4b9 (that being said, I call a plain Am7b5 with a D in the bass a D7sus4b9. it's a pretty chord)
spicier choices could be B7alt or Ebmaj7#11 (although doubling the Eb in this case is fairly ugly imo)
but yeah G minorish stuff is my first thought. you could probably massage it to sound like it's in Bb or Eb or C minor.
and like jan says you don't have to name every vertical stack of notes. another example, you could go A Eb G D -> A Eb F# D. in that context the horizontal motion makes me just think of G as a suspension or non-chord-tone or whatever en route to that minor-key-dominant sound, rather than as part of some clunky chord structure like Dsus4b9 (that being said, I call a plain Am7b5 with a D in the bass a D7sus4b9. it's a pretty chord)
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Some do call it like that.
For me it would have to feel like a dominant chord, where 'Am7b5/D' may not. But names aren't that important, your first job is to convey what notes are desired, over nuance like function and that.
For me it would have to feel like a dominant chord, where 'Am7b5/D' may not. But names aren't that important, your first job is to convey what notes are desired, over nuance like function and that.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
Thank you!! I really had fun exploring those options. Appreciate the roadmap!NERF_PROTOSS wrote: ↑Mon May 31, 2021 9:47 pm if you permit me to cheat and add an extra bass note you could look at it as Cm6 or F7 (sidenote: it's not uncommon to hear of jazz players treating a minor ii-V this way e.g. playing F7 or C minor language over Am7b5).
spicier choices could be B7alt or Ebmaj7#11 (although doubling the Eb in this case is fairly ugly imo)
but yeah G minorish stuff is my first thought. you could probably massage it to sound like it's in Bb or Eb or C minor.
and like jan says you don't have to name every vertical stack of notes. another example, you could go A Eb G D -> A Eb F# D. in that context the horizontal motion makes me just think of G as a suspension or non-chord-tone or whatever en route to that minor-key-dominant sound, rather than as part of some clunky chord structure like Dsus4b9 (that being said, I call a plain Am7b5 with a D in the bass a D7sus4b9. it's a pretty chord)
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
not only not uncommon, m7b5 *is* ii7 of any minor goal, here in the OP default ii7 of G minor.
(ii7-V7- in minor trending in Youtube jazz theory at the moment)
agree sus4b9 is a clunky kind of name, but I've seen it more than once, in say Wayne Shorter lead sheets and such.
for me, the fact of a type in modern harmony where what would be a 4 in the bass, well it means something in itself; it's a suspended sort of sonority [CF that: D7 sus4(b9)]. A more restful one, say Dm7/G bass, aka G7sus4 (9), personally I tend to prefer the slash chord name, it seems easier to grab immediately by sight and it tells us something of the relationship the other one does not, in sort of linear terms.
But names, people have their individual, subjective viewpoint or whatever. For example so-called polychords; for some people all of the time, or most people some of the time, may as well be called one chord with the attendant extensions. IDK how well this has been studied scrupulously, but I'd guess that the majority of people experiencing say a Milhaud work where 'polytonality' applies are not perceiving but the one key.
(ii7-V7- in minor trending in Youtube jazz theory at the moment)
agree sus4b9 is a clunky kind of name, but I've seen it more than once, in say Wayne Shorter lead sheets and such.
for me, the fact of a type in modern harmony where what would be a 4 in the bass, well it means something in itself; it's a suspended sort of sonority [CF that: D7 sus4(b9)]. A more restful one, say Dm7/G bass, aka G7sus4 (9), personally I tend to prefer the slash chord name, it seems easier to grab immediately by sight and it tells us something of the relationship the other one does not, in sort of linear terms.
But names, people have their individual, subjective viewpoint or whatever. For example so-called polychords; for some people all of the time, or most people some of the time, may as well be called one chord with the attendant extensions. IDK how well this has been studied scrupulously, but I'd guess that the majority of people experiencing say a Milhaud work where 'polytonality' applies are not perceiving but the one key.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
per the slash chords remark, it's kind of like the difference between a 'flat' descriptive analysis in say Schenker and figured bass which reveals the derivation for the harmony in voice leading.
IE; the 6/4 chord, eg., C/G bass has tendency, to 5/3 ie., G or G7 root position. confer Am7b5/D to D7 (the dominant type), ie., ii7 over V bass, in major or minor.
IE; the 6/4 chord, eg., C/G bass has tendency, to 5/3 ie., G or G7 root position. confer Am7b5/D to D7 (the dominant type), ie., ii7 over V bass, in major or minor.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
That's a new point of view for me. Never thought it could be analyzed this way. Eye opener!
I've always been marking it as F/G or G11 (which is technically incorrect). I like its sounding in place of a V chord in right context, and recently I figured it can 'establish' something on its own, just like when I hear a foreign major chord it's usually a new IV somewhere. This gives me a kind of new V feeling.
We're digressing
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
in terms of measurement, 4 in the bass; identifying the harmony, well it may be called something other than that.
the model for my thinking here is the 6/4 position, which a pop music chart is free to call 'sus4' etc.
So F/G is in one sense G7sus4(9). In more 'common period' practice (often called classical practice) a mere I6/4 isn't a suspension through itself, the suspended bits must be literally a suspension from a previous harmony. 9, anything non-triadic may be suspended, but in pop charts that 9 is just 9.
There appears sometimes a 'sus2' in charts or lead sheets, meaning a major 2 replaces any 3rd, which Zappa called 'the 2 chord'. but 'classically' "2 chord" refers to the figure for 3rd inversion, the interval between the root and bass. F G B D for example. Per a C tonic, there V4/2.
And in 'classical' (typically baroque period) there is a 2-3 suspension but it doesn't make the 2 a 3, its bass moves down from a 2nd to make the 3rd. ie., same as 4-3 but the 3 is in the bass.
So terminology gets to be pretty nuanced or complicated dealing in more than one style consideration.
the model for my thinking here is the 6/4 position, which a pop music chart is free to call 'sus4' etc.
So F/G is in one sense G7sus4(9). In more 'common period' practice (often called classical practice) a mere I6/4 isn't a suspension through itself, the suspended bits must be literally a suspension from a previous harmony. 9, anything non-triadic may be suspended, but in pop charts that 9 is just 9.
There appears sometimes a 'sus2' in charts or lead sheets, meaning a major 2 replaces any 3rd, which Zappa called 'the 2 chord'. but 'classically' "2 chord" refers to the figure for 3rd inversion, the interval between the root and bass. F G B D for example. Per a C tonic, there V4/2.
And in 'classical' (typically baroque period) there is a 2-3 suspension but it doesn't make the 2 a 3, its bass moves down from a 2nd to make the 3rd. ie., same as 4-3 but the 3 is in the bass.
So terminology gets to be pretty nuanced or complicated dealing in more than one style consideration.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
Funny enough, today I revisited my chord in question on William Leavitt's textbook.
I picked up this book as a guide for guitar, and it turned out to become a theory book - a deep one
I picked up this book as a guide for guitar, and it turned out to become a theory book - a deep one
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- KVRian
- 880 posts since 26 Oct, 2011
Bah, they should go with actual ii7 rather than b5. Want your halfstep motion? V7b9 or V7#9. That's what we did, except bII7#9 (which contains the b9 of V, of course)
I swear to god, the only reason this topic is trending is because people can't get past the idea that minor = your tonic is minor. I've legitimately seen videos where a viable 2-5-1 was presented with harmonic minor, i.e. as if you could rest in a tonic mM7. And of course, you can if you want to, but... that's not really what happens in minor standards (not that ii7 without b5 happens that much either)
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it's trending probably because people copy each other, and this subject is pretty easy to talk about
we're getting into taste, and I don't follow taste as more than it is. A real i with ^7 is probably not great for some tunes, but argument-to-repose per se, I donno.
we're getting into taste, and I don't follow taste as more than it is. A real i with ^7 is probably not great for some tunes, but argument-to-repose per se, I donno.
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- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
m^7 *is* very moody. I gravitate to it frequently in part-writing, I guess because it's so effective and I enjoy it. or just the intervals m3 and M7, 'D F C#' however it figures in.
my own jazz reharmonization/arranging used things...
my own jazz reharmonization/arranging used things...
