Why you left Ableton?

Plug-in hosts and other software applications discussion
KVRian
584 posts since 4 Feb, 2017

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:01 pm

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:03 am

Also the sampler thing you are not understanding.
If I drag a sample to the track area, it automatically puts it into a sampler without needing to add the sampler first.
Like I said, it works the same in Live.
- Double clicking a sample gives you the Simpler.
- Dragging a sample asks if you want to convert.
Last edited by Rivanni on Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
3478 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:07 pm

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:57 pm
The new modulation stuff coming out for Live is amazing, I think MAX 8 (with MC and MaoE etc) is going to be next level for Live.

Check this stuff out for fun Live modulation! https://k-devices.com/products/modulators21/
MaoE?
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

KVRian
664 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:10 pm

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:03 am
I never said that Bitwig tells you what you need but the convenience of just pressing the add button in either the track or device section will have a popup browser vs needing to go to the side browser all the time.
Also the sampler thing you are not understanding.
If I drag a sample to the track area, it automatically puts it into a sampler without needing to add the sampler first.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about adding an effect to an effect, but you can pretty much do the same things in Live and Bitwig in the rack, its only the modulation 'methods' that are different, its more like standard routing in Live (click source, click destination) but you can modulate just about anything and there are 1000's of modulation devices available.

Yes, Bitwig is great for little workflow features like drag a sample to the timeline and it shows as audio, drag it to the rack and it opens in sampler. It took a while, but Bitwig has a great sampler now. Live works differently with two different samplers, so perhaps the fact that you have to pick one first prohibits this feature.
Bitwig lets you add effects inside of specific effects. For example in Bitwig if you add a Delay effect it has the ability to add an effect to the Feedback signal so you can add a chorus or saturation (or another delay) to the feedback signal and pretty much make it sound like whatever you like. A lot of the effects in Bitwig work this way. Another example is the Dynamics and Gate plugins allows you to add effects to the side chain signal. The reverb lets you add effects to the Tank and Wet signal. These are not things you can do in Live or at least do them easily.

It's built in devices by default aren't as drop in and play as Live but the effects devices give you the tools and flexibility to make them do almost whatever you want. There are places where Bitwig is just plain more well rounded. Live doesn't have a multi band rack effect, but a lot of Bitwig devices already split the signal and let you affect part of the signal path (Multiband FX, Stereo split, Mid-side split). To do the same in Live you'd need do a lot of messing around with the multi band dynamics device and chains.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

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KVRAF
2148 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:40 pm

I do wonder why Live has not implemented device like Multipass, with a nice GUI to see bands and drag them. Is it that they don't want to step on the toes of plug-in designers, depriving Melda's price-hiked multi-band devices of their value? It seems it would be doable on Ableton's part.
"Have you ever noticed how anyone driving faster than you is a [jerk] and anyone driving slower than you is a moron?" - George Carlin

KVRAF
7712 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:53 pm

Dirtgrain wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:40 pm
I do wonder why Live has not implemented device like Multipass, with a nice GUI to see bands and drag them. Is it that they don't want to step on the toes of plug-in designers, depriving Melda's price-hiked multi-band devices of their value? It seems it would be doable on Ableton's part.
It’s kinda always been there https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/make-cu ... acks-live/
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
33447 posts since 11 Aug, 2008 from another dimension

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:21 pm

I left Ableton Live because I had to go to bed.
Hi-de-Hi!

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KVRAF
2148 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Post Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:39 pm

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:53 pm
It’s kinda always been there https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/make-cu ... acks-live/
I'm quite aware, but maybe you overlook what I said about GUI. And five or six bands (without convoluted rigmarole would be a bonus).
"Have you ever noticed how anyone driving faster than you is a [jerk] and anyone driving slower than you is a moron?" - George Carlin

KVRAF
7712 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:07 am

Dirtgrain wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:39 pm
SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:53 pm
It’s kinda always been there https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/make-cu ... acks-live/
I'm quite aware, but maybe you overlook what I said about GUI. And five or six bands (without convoluted rigmarole would be a bonus).
A Multipass type fx racks in Live would of course be more convenient- I am just saying you can pretty much get there in Live with FX Racks as it is...You can have an 'unlimited' amount of bands with this method not just 6, and full screen real time spectrum display with EQ8.

The Audio FX Rack isn't particularly convoluted and you are just using an EQ (or filter) to process whatever part you want, you can even go further and use dynamics, velocity etc and have pretty much unlimited chains and chains within chains (fx within fx) for complex routing.

Personal I don't bother with the Racks Method since I own Multipass and if I am honest, I can only think of a few cases where it has been useful to me, and then its normally just shelfing something which can quite easily be done with a filter (and that is often built in to the FX anyway, such as on a reverb)
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRAF
7712 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:52 am

MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am
Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track. better EQs, FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins. Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you
I think it's also fair to say that Live is inherently 'tied in' to PUSH and that could limit in some ways options which are simpler in software only (Machine can have the same issue)

If you are a PUSH user (I have a PUSH 2, its a thing of beauty :D ) the browsing 'that way' sort of makes sense and the selecting and auditioning on the PUSH feels fluid (like you are using hardware). I can leave my browser closed most of the time. Also having the 'convert' button on PUSH that turns any selected clip in to a Simpler instrument ready to play.

Of course if you don't want a PUSH then these things are of no advantage, but I think PUSH 2 is the best hardware/software integration I have used and the lack of dedicated hardware support in Bitwig (I never got on with the MOSS scripts) could be seen by some to be a disadvantage- PUSH 2 and LIVE are seamless and developed together, but that may disadvantage non-PUSH users....Bitwig don't have to worry about integrating (or not breaking) hardware features!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRAF
1919 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:11 am

SLiC wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:52 am
MuzikFreq wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 am
Toying with the demo mode of 11 suite reminds me how much easier and better bitwig is.
Drag a sample to the track area makes a sampler track. better EQs, FAR easier way to modulate parameters, applying effects on ANY FX plugins. Just the true full control vs needing to constantly go back to the browser for the simplest thing as a sampler or an eq. The browser in bitwig comes to you
I think it's also fair to say that Live is inherently 'tied in' to PUSH and that could limit in some ways options which are simpler in software only (Machine can have the same issue)

If you are a PUSH user (I have a PUSH 2, its a thing of beauty :D ) the browsing 'that way' sort of makes sense and the selecting and auditioning on the PUSH feels fluid (like you are using hardware). I can leave my browser closed most of the time. Also having the 'convert' button on PUSH that turns any selected clip in to a Simpler instrument ready to play.

Of course if you don't want a PUSH then these things are of no advantage, but I think PUSH 2 is the best hardware/software integration I have used and the lack of dedicated hardware support in Bitwig (I never got on with the MOSS scripts) could be seen by some to be a disadvantage- PUSH 2 and LIVE are seamless and developed together, but that may disadvantage non-PUSH users....Bitwig don't have to worry about integrating (or not breaking) hardware features!
owning the Push 2 indeed has many advantages (except for arrangment, and strangely now real transport buttons, i use my sl 48 mkii for it, which also displays the parameters, ánd unlike bitwig, if choose another page, not all controllers via MOSS, go to the same page (or i can be wrong)).

but i work in session view, arrangmenent is a later in the process.

i don't have to choose, what ableton can't do, or it works better in bitwig studio, i use bitwig studio and the other way around.

strangely, i think i mentioned here before, ableton live 11 suite, has become quite a experimental playground, if you work like me (nothing special about it, or is it??). i don't miss the modulation capabilties of bitwig. in that way.

bitwig is also still an experimental playground, but for different kind of projects, mainly projects that don't depend on the M4L devices built in, and the third party ones.

i bought the Push 2 first... not strange... suite came later... and at that time i really could make what i want, that was version 10. now 11, it is only better.

as always, it is how you work, what kind of music you make, even mastering tools work better on different genres.

and how you create your own workflow with a DAW.

the Push 2, i think it never breaks (there are bugs... or were...), it is also the reason, why i only have 11 suite installed in my studio.

bitwig i use on my laptop. perhaps several reasons, it also gives a kind of focus on my laptop, only to have installed 3 of the 6 DAW's (4 i think.. now).

and i have touchscreen in my studio, and yes bitwig ís better for touchscreen, but ableton also performs quite well.
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KVRAF
7712 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:58 am

MOSS does an amazing job trying top keep devices up-to-date and working with Bitwig (I don't think he is even paid by Bitwig? They are somewhat reliant on him if he ever stopped!)

Hhe captures (sometimes even improves) on certain features, but nothing like what Ableton can do with the amazing graphics in PUSH 2 which is a large part of the experience. - I prefer PUSH 2 with Live by a long way, but its also usable with Bitwig (but I wouldn't buy it just for Bigwig, Not a '2' at least, maybe a 1)

Latest MOSS video with Bitwig 4 (beta) and PUSH!

https://youtu.be/X5XRjQEQ6pA
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
19471 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:25 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 am
Live has a brilliant reverb, far better than Bitwigs
I already have brilliant reverbs... I appreciate Bitwig's reverb cause I can put any device or chain of devices in the feedback path and create effects I wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

KVRAF
7712 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:59 am

pdxindy wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:25 am
SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:29 am
Live has a brilliant reverb, far better than Bitwigs
I already have brilliant reverbs... I appreciate Bitwig's reverb cause I can put any device or chain of devices in the feedback path and create effects I wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
I pretty much use just Lives FX when using PUSH 2, its like using hardware and the graphical feedback on the PUSH 2is superb. You have native AAS FX, Crytonics stuff and some of the Ableton stuff is top draw. I have everything I can think of (spectral, grain, resonators, looper, convolution, shimmer)...I wouldn't know what to make! So need for me to make anything or go 3rd party (not even MAX where you could find already made or make just about anything you want!)

If however I wanted to drop something in the feedback path of a reverb or delay, I would just use Bitwig :wink:
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
11067 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:09 am

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:21 am
I left Live cause I was buying a Linnstrument and wanted a DAW that supported MPE. Live doesn't... it cannot even record PolyAT.

M4L was too buggy and caused a lot of crashes. I eventually just stopped using M4L and then Live was solid and I was generally happy with it.
This was my reason too. Moot now, but I don’t see any major compelling reason to return to it. I miss the Looper plugin, but that’s it. Being able to set a project tempo based on loop length was pretty cool.
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KVRAF
19471 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:21 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:16 am
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about adding an effect to an effect, but you can pretty much do the same things in Live and Bitwig in the rack, its only the modulation 'methods' that are different, its more like standard routing in Live (click source, click destination) but you can modulate just about anything and there are 1000's of modulation devices available.
Nesting effects... like putting other devices inside the delay feedback path. Not possible in Live.

And as far as modulations... 1000's of modulation devices is not a positive feature, but rather a sign of something not right in the core design.

Try adding 3 Env's and 3 LFO's to modulate a synth in Live. Now try to see an overview of those modulations. No can do... It's a big mess.

Now add 3 Env's and 3 LFO's to modulate a synth in Bitwig. Select the synth and all 6 Env's and LFO's and their targets will be listed in the Inspector. While looking at that overview in the Inspector, you can edit individual target depths of any modulator, you can add and delete new mod targets, you can disable/enable individual targets or sources, so it is easy to demo the sound with and without one of the LFO's enabled. It is a fast smooth workflow to switch between two modulators to see which one sounds right for that use case. Right in the Inspector you can set Env 2 to modulate the target depth of LFO1 modulating filter cutoff. Try that in Live... the workflow is miserable in comparison.

So one of the reasons there are so many mod devices in Live is there are devices that contain multiple modulators. The impetus to do this is to overcome the sorts of limitations listed above. You can buy a whole separate modulation system in an effort to overcome the core issues. And of course a lot of the best stuff is commercial so not only is it not included but it is additional cost. May as well buy a VST plugin then.

For me, the biggest limitation with Live modulation compared to Bitwig is it is mono only, and cannot be per voice with their own devices like Bitwig. So in Bitwig, I can add the Bitwig Sampler, and any modulators I add to it can be mono or poly (per voice). Not possible in Live.

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