KVR Audio

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:51 pm

SLiC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:29 pm Yup- if you don't want use MAX or use anything anyone else has ever made in MAX, then it is definitely 100% useless!

M4L devices wont work in my DAW so using them is not even an option. So yes, it is 100% useless for me.

syntonica · Post by **syntonica** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:58 pm

While there's some overlap between the two, they are both really different things. The Grid is more just wiring up a few devices. Max is a full on programming language, even though mostly visual, that feels too much like programming to me. I'd rather just plug a few things in and go to town when I'm creating. I already spend enough time programming.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:14 pm

The overlap between the two is really the algorithms; you still have to know what you want to do and work out how to do it before you think about connecting or programming anything. If you don't know that you string several all-pass filters together in series to make a Phaser for example, it wont matter what tools you have to make it! Using MAX and to a lesser extent the Grid is as much about knowing how things work at an audio level as it is knowing how to patch or program. If you cant just say how to do it in English (or whatever language you speak!) then you cant patch it...so on some level we can discuss making things in MAX or the Grid.

fwsuperhero · Post by **fwsuperhero** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:51 am

for everybody who is missing gird customizable UI -
buy Nektar Panorama T4.

Then you can call your macro pages like osc1, osc2, filter and they will be automatically mapped to 8 knobs on Panorama and you can easily switch pages by your osc1, osc2, filter etc. buttons on Panorama.
This is something which would not be so easy with custom UI

MuzikFreq · Post by **MuzikFreq** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:51 pm

syntonica wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:58 pm While there's some overlap between the two, they are both really different things. The Grid is more just wiring up a few devices. Max is a full on programming language, even though mostly visual, that feels too much like programming to me. I'd rather just plug a few things in and go to town when I'm creating. I already spend enough time programming.

I dunno. Seeing some of these grid devices and how they function is on a whole new level. And with time I only see them adding more functions.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:05 pm

MuzikFreq wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:51 pm
syntonica wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:58 pm While there's some overlap between the two, they are both really different things. The Grid is more just wiring up a few devices. Max is a full on programming language, even though mostly visual, that feels too much like programming to me. I'd rather just plug a few things in and go to town when I'm creating. I already spend enough time programming.
I dunno. Seeing some of these grid devices and how they function is on a whole new level. And with time I only see them adding more functions.

Definitely, with time...but it may take a long time if you want all of the MAX functionality...MAX has been around 30 years!

I don't think many Bitwig users want everything MAX does (like video, hardware control, stand alone programs etc) but I think most want Midi and a GUI/Presentation Mode.

apoclypse · Post by **apoclypse** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:13 pm

SLiC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:05 pm
MuzikFreq wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:51 pm
syntonica wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:58 pm While there's some overlap between the two, they are both really different things. The Grid is more just wiring up a few devices. Max is a full on programming language, even though mostly visual, that feels too much like programming to me. I'd rather just plug a few things in and go to town when I'm creating. I already spend enough time programming.
I dunno. Seeing some of these grid devices and how they function is on a whole new level. And with time I only see them adding more functions.
Definitely, with time...but it may take a long time if you want all of the MAX functionality...MAX has been around 30 years!

I don't think many Bitwig users want everything MAX does (like video, hardware control, stand alone programs etc) but I think most want Midi and a GUI/Presentation Mode.

Yeah custom UI is pretty much what I want.

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:33 pm

The Grid is vastly useless to me and MAX, even though I’m not programming it yet, but starting to dig it, has the advantage of being used by others more talented than me and giving back to the community thousands of useful tools which in many cases “proposes” new way of making music unthinkable in the Grid.
And let’s not forget that the modulations from Max are Global which is impossible in Bitwig.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:53 pm

SLiC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:14 pm The overlap between the two is really the algorithms; you still have to know what you want to do and work out how to do it before you think about connecting or programming anything. If you don't know that you string several all-pass filters together in series to make a Phaser for example, it wont matter what tools you have to make it! Using MAX and to a lesser extent the Grid is as much about knowing how things work at an audio level as it is knowing how to patch or program. If you cant just say how to do it in English (or whatever language you speak!) then you cant patch it...so on some level we can discuss making things in MAX or the Grid.

I'm not interested in building a Phaser, or a Reverb. Even if I know the basics of how to build one, why should I bother? Skilled developers with years of experience have made VST plugins that are better than anything I would ever manage to create. Not only are those VST's better sounding and with better GUI's, but they are also more cpu efficient and they work in every DAW. I would much rather have a VST plugin than an ugly, cpu inefficient Max device.

Also, something like Max has a very high cost of entry. It does not allow a casual, simple use according to ones interests.

This is where Bitwig is pretty effective I would say. I don't need to know anything about all-pass filters in order to drop a phaser or reverb into the feedback path of the Delay. In Bitwig it is simple to do with no knowledge or learning curve... just drag-n-drop one device into the other!

Likewise, I can go into the Grid, add a sampler module and a wavetable module, 2 LFO's and 2 Envelopes and make a synth patch in minutes. If a user wants to stick to simple things, there is a very small learning curve and entry is easy. The level of involvement is decided by the user. With Max, I would need something like 6 months of Max boot camp to be able to build that simple synth patch that took me minutes in the Grid.

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:15 pm

Skilled developers with years of experience have made MAX devices that are better than anything I would ever manage to create and many are free and better than VSTS in many cases (for example, I can get all the MI stuff I use in my Eurorack)

With the Grid you have to make it yourself so I would be limited by my talent and my imagination!

As for ' ugly, CPU inefficient Max device', not any more since MAX 8 and they can look like whatever you want them to look like (unlike Bitwig!) but personally I like the simple Live style (that also translates well to the PUSH display) If you think these MAX device's are Ugly then we have different taste!

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:30 pm

SLiC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:15 pm Skilled developers with years of experience have made MAX devices that are better than anything I would ever manage to create and many are free and better than VSTS in many cases (for example, I can get all the MI stuff I use in my Eurorack)

And you are using those devices in Bitwig?

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:02 pm

Neither he can use the Grid stuff in Live

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:31 pm

liquidsound wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:02 pm Neither he can use the Grid stuff in Live

True... but he doesn't use those thousands of M4L devices in Live either...

liquidsound · Post by **liquidsound** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:54 pm

pdxindy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:31 pm
liquidsound wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:02 pm Neither he can use the Grid stuff in Live
True... but he doesn't use those thousands of M4L devices in Live either...

Believe it or not I use more M4L devices lately than VSTs (over 400

)

You’ll be surprised how much more fun is to discover what people are creating lately with M4L and really capable of adding new aspects to music making in ways that no other DAW out there can.

Even the revered (classic) modulations offered by BW or Modulat are beginning to feel more like old generation news compared to some extraordinary tools becoming more and more efficient and smoothly integrated in Live.

I’m looking forward to see what a Midi Grid can accomplish IF will be implemented at a global level because so far the modulations are still limited at the track level....

mholloway · Post by **mholloway** » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:10 pm

No matter how hard people try to sell M4L in here, the fact is that its modulators still take absolute control over their destination parameters, making it so you can no longer modify the parameter, but only modulate it / figure out the 'initial' value via the modulator's offset controls, etc.

In Bitwig, the Modulators take relative control of parameters (relative to current setting of parameter) thereby allowing you to retain control of the Parameter even though its being modulated.

This is an absolute Night and Day difference to me, and an unforgivable oversight in M4L, afaic.

I use Live more than Bitwig, so I'm not playing for a team here. I just think M4L's implementation is still clunky after all these years.

Bitwig Studio 4 announced (+beta available)!