Bitwig Studio 4 announced (+beta available)!

[liquidsound]

No matter how hard people try to sell M4L in here, the fact is that its modulators still take absolute control over their destination parameters, making it so you can no longer modify the parameter, but only modulate it / figure out the 'initial' value via the modulator's offset controls, etc.

Use Offset and Depth to achieve the same thing.
Sell M4L? I'm a buyer in both camps.

[pdxindy]

You’ll be surprised how much more fun is to discover what people are creating lately with M4L and really capable of adding new aspects to music making in ways that no other DAW out there can.

Even the revered (classic) modulations offered by BW or Modulat are beginning to feel more like old generation news compared to some extraordinary tools becoming more and more efficient and smoothly integrated in Live.

We have very different interests. I wont be surprised and I have only a passing curiosity in what people are creating in M4L. Even if I were using Live 11 (which I own), I wouldn't care. Most of what I see being created doesn't look useful to me. They look like shiny new things for the sake of shiny new things.

In Bitwig, I am using Env's and LFO's along with Velocity, Randomization, Modwheel/Pedal, Pressure and Timbre for like 75% of the modulations I set up. Then I do stuff like use an Env to fade in an LFO.

For basic modulations tasks, the workflow in Bitwig is far superior to Live. If for some reason I went back to using Live, I wouldn't bother with using Live modulation. I would use VST's that have enough modulation built-in that I didn't have to. The Live modulation workflow is terrible.

[pdxindy]

No matter how hard people try to sell M4L in here, the fact is that its modulators still take absolute control over their destination parameters, making it so you can no longer modify the parameter, but only modulate it / figure out the 'initial' value via the modulator's offset controls, etc.

In Bitwig, the Modulators take relative control of parameters (relative to current setting of parameter) thereby allowing you to retain control of the Parameter even though its being modulated.

This is an absolute Night and Day difference to me, and an unforgivable oversight in M4L, afaic.

Last year I was visiting a friend who uses Live and we were looking at some project they were working on and I was reminded what an annoying limitation this is. It felt so clunky after being used to Bitwig where you modulate a parameter and can still directly adjust that parameter.

[pdxindy]

I’m looking forward to see what a Midi Grid can accomplish IF will be implemented at a global level because so far the modulations are still limited at the track level....

Again we have very different interests. It doesn't matter to me whether Bitwig implements global modulators. I'm satisfied with it as is at the device/chain level.

On the other hand, I use the Grid and other Bitwig instruments all the time so I am using per voice modulation constantly. Live and all those M4L devices cannot do per voice modulation. For me, that is a show stopping limitation.

We all find the tools that work for us. If Live works better for you, great. For my real world use, Bitwig's modulation is in another league. I would not want to go back to the awful clunky workflow of Live.

[liquidsound]

The Live modulation workflow is terrible.

I wouldn't say terrible but different with more power available if needed and "Global" control over aspects of the DAW that are not possible in BW.
You can easly use an envelope to fade out a LFO in Live as well.
Here again you are impressed with the integration while I'm impressed by almost unlimited power available in MAX, at a cost, but available if one is willing to stretch personal limitations or Google for vast power made by others.

You seems to have painful experiences in Live while I'm having pleasent experiences in BW and great ones in Live.
So I feel more confortable than you in using both as needed and able to take advantage of all that is available.
In fact v4 will be welcomed in my set up.
I dropped S1 and Logic (worse mone ever spent on that one) for Live and BWS.

I find good in both but with clear distinctions.

[SLiC]

Yup- all tools (or toys ) in the box - I use MAX (standalone), Reaktor and even a bit of Flowstone; there is no doubt that stuff interests me (and repulses others!). Having MAX and PUSH is what keeps me linked with Live and not just using Bigwig exclusively. Bitwig has the most elegant and easy to use modulation system available, of that their is no doubt, but that doesn't mean it is 'perfect' or that the odd thing can be achieved better by other programs, like native MSEG modulation for example.

[jclosed]

Hmmm... Why are people desperatly try to "sell" M4L in a Bitwig 4 announcement thread is beyond me. I mean - There are enough Live threads (even a "why did you leave" one) to go all out on it.

I had Ableton Live for a long time (from version 5 or 6, I'm not sure). I had the standard version that did not include M4L. I had to fork out a LOT of money (even when I already owned a standard version) to upgrade to the new version, and also have to pay on top of that for M4L if I wanted to use that. The other choice was to upgrade (and update) to the Suite version, that also involved a LOT of money. Taken into account that all upgrades where mainly for the Suite version and only a small bit for the standard version, I really started to be pissed off.

So I tried Bitwig for a while, and was blown away how much easier everything was in that DAW. It did everything I wanted, and some more. I felt a 100 times more comfortable in a few hours in Bitwig than I felt comfortable with Life in even many years. Taken all of this in consideration I decided to sell my Live licence. For the money I got, and the money I initially reserved for the Live upgrade combined, I could buy Bitwig, and even had money left for some plugin stuff if needed it (until now not that much). And let's not forget, all that modulator and matrix stuff is in the full version of Bitwig, that's a lot cheaper than Ableton Live Suite, or Ableton Live standard + extra money for M4L. So comparing is not even fair in that way to be honest.

I watched a lot of M4L YouTube stuff, so I am not clueless about it. I can only say I prefer the way stuff is done in Bitwig. It's easy, simple and suits my needs fully. Yes, you can do more with M4L, but that's beyond the point. I can do everything I want with Bitwig's Matrix and Modulators (and, of course, all the other stuff), and have no need for more. M4L is Ableton Live only, so I have no need to compare it to Bitwig's matrix, because I no longer own Live. The discussion what is better is pointless for me, because I no longer own Live, and I am frankly glad I sold it.

It is nice to see Bitwig getting more and more nice features. I like where Bitwig is going, and I think the 4.0 version is getting good stuff. Sure - I might not be there yet, but what DAW is? I tried almost every DAW and finally got down to only two DAW's. Those two DAW's are Bitwig and Cubase. Those two have everything I need for my musical needs.

Bitwig 4.0 is still in beta stage, so some bug hunting still has to be done until the final stable version. I already looking forward what new stuff will be implemented in the versions beyond 4.0. For now all the new features in 4.0 (like comping) makes me even more glad I am a Bitwig user.

[liquidsound]

I’m looking forward to see what a Midi Grid can accomplish IF will be implemented at a global level because so far the modulations are still limited at the track level....

Again we have very different interests. It doesn't matter to me whether Bitwig implements global modulators. I'm satisfied with it as is at the device/chain level.

On the other hand, I use the Grid and other Bitwig instruments all the time so I am using per voice modulation constantly. Live and all those M4L devices cannot do per voice modulation. For me, that is a show stopping limitation.

We all find the tools that work for us. If Live works better for you, great. For my real world use, Bitwig's modulation is in another league. I would not want to go back to the awful clunky workflow of Live.

Sorry for the Clunky, and "per voice modulation" that's a pdxindy "thing" which I admit you use it quite well indeed, but not me for music production.
Quick sound design? Yes, BW easy, quick, fun...(Operators are intriguing but I don't have a beta) but anything beyond that, back to my main DAW.

[liquidsound]

Hmmm... Why are people desperatly try to "sell" M4L in a Bitwig 4 announcement thread is beyond me.

There are desprate Modulation "sales" on Live 11 too.
It's all good.

It's a Forever thing between aficionado, and we keep it light and humorous

[SLiC]

Neither he can use the Grid stuff in Live

True... but he doesn't use those thousands of M4L devices in Live either...

There are also 1000's of VST's I don't use, but that doesn't make the VST format less valuable?

Surely its good to have more choice so you can find just what you want/need? I am really not following there is 'too much choice' or 'too many devices' available in MAX argument.

When Bitwig has midi grid and interface makers I guarantee there will end up being 1000's of Bitwig Grid devices available and some people will enjoy playing with them. After all, isn't that why https://bitwiggers.com/ exists?

[SLiC]

Hmmm... Why are people desperatly try to "sell" M4L in a Bitwig 4 announcement thread is beyond me. I mean - There are enough Live threads (even a "why did you leave" one) to go all out on it.

A lot of people here use both Bitwig and Live and can discuss the pro's and con's of both in a civil manner (mainly ) - It's OK to talk about what bits of Live work and would be good in Bitwig...I think most people want the grid to be able to do 'some' of the stuff MAX currently does but in a 'Bitwig' way- midi, presentation (GUI) mode...who knows maybe one day video...

Have Bitwig ever officially said the Grid will do Midi or have we just all assumed it?

Anyway- hopefully the next beta will drop on Monday and there will be something else to talk about!

[pdxindy]

The Live modulation workflow is terrible.

I wouldn't say terrible but different with more power available if needed and "Global" control over aspects of the DAW that are not possible in BW.
You can easly use an envelope to fade out a LFO in Live as well.
Here again you are impressed with the integration while I'm impressed by almost unlimited power available in MAX, at a cost, but available if one is willing to stretch personal limitations or Google for vast power made by others.

Yeah, we disagree... compared to Bitwig modulation workflow, Live sucks. You add a modulator and then modulate filter cutoff and you can no longer directly adjust filter cutoff. That is a terrible workflow IMO.

In Bitwig, I can add 2 Env's, 2 LFO's, an Expression modulator and a couple Random modulators to a synth. With the synth selected, I can view all 7 modulators in the Inspector. I can see and edit all the targets and mod depths. I can add new targets. With a single click I can disable/enable individual modulators or individual targets to quickly test how it sounds with and without. I can see that modulation overview in the mixer even with the device panel closed.

Now do the same set-up in Live. Yes, I think the workflow is terrible in comparison.

And you keep mentioning how powerful M4L modulation is. Yet there is no per voice modulation for Live instruments like there is with Bitwig modulation and Bitwig instruments. Maybe 40-50% of the time I am using Bitwig modulation I am using per voice modulation. So 40-50% of the time I am doing stuff in Bitwig that is not possible with Live and all those M4L modulation devices.

[SLiC]

In Live I can add a native MSEG with drawing tools and as many points as I like which is the modulation device I use most of the time. I look forward to this being added to Bitwig.

[Echoes in the Attic]

On the topic of M4L devices, do they still add a bunch of latency in Live? I remember that being a problem, especially live doesn't properly compensate time synced plugins that would come after those devices.

[liquidsound]

And you keep mentioning how powerful M4L modulation is. Yet there is no per voice modulation for Live instruments like there is with Bitwig modulation and Bitwig instruments. Maybe 40-50% of the time I am using Bitwig modulation I am using per voice modulation. So 40-50% of the time I am doing stuff in Bitwig that is not possible with Live and all those M4L modulation devices.

Yes! Definitely your thing!
But no other DAW is capable of it (BW things and M4L things) and still the entire world produces fantastic music...
And so many other possibilities the other way around not possible in BW.
I use both... you can't.

At the end of the day if you are happy with your music, more power to you but my personal view or yours doesn' t make our DAW more powerful or better for the world but to a personal level for sure.

In a way BWS is still at the beginning of their journey, and doing well, but because of BW innovations, Live is on a new journey with some "deep surprised" ahead.

I would keep an eye on both, as I do, and appreciate the two approach these two companies are giving to the music world.

"Terrible"