Bitwig Studio 4 announced (+beta available)!

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KVRAF

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10024 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:23 am

SLiC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:38 am
In Live I can add a native MSEG with drawing tools and as many points as I like which is the modulation device I use most of the time. I look forward to this being added to Bitwig.
The difference is, Bitwig will get the MSEG modulator eventually ( :pray: ), but I doubt modulation scheme will ever change in Live :)
Music tech enthusiast
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7956 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:30 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:23 am
SLiC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:38 am
In Live I can add a native MSEG with drawing tools and as many points as I like which is the modulation device I use most of the time. I look forward to this being added to Bitwig.
The difference is, Bitwig will get the MSEG modulator eventually ( :pray: ), but I doubt modulation scheme will ever change in Live :)
Yup- everything will get everything 'eventually', until then....
I would have put money on MESG in Bitwig 4 (and Midi grid, so it shows what I know!)

It would be sort of poetic justice if Live did just completely copy Bigwigs superb modulation system! :wink:
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

KVRAF
9253 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:48 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:48 am
On the topic of M4L devices, do they still add a bunch of latency in Live? I remember that being a problem, especially live doesn't properly compensate time synced plugins that would come after those devices.
I remember now - M4L devices used to add the audio buffer latency, at each device. So it would change depending on your audio buffer settings. This was a deal breaker for me years ago when I used it. Is it still the same?
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

KVRAF
7956 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:25 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:48 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:48 am
On the topic of M4L devices, do they still add a bunch of latency in Live? I remember that being a problem, especially live doesn't properly compensate time synced plugins that would come after those devices.
I remember now - M4L devices used to add the audio buffer latency, at each device. So it would change depending on your audio buffer settings. This was a deal breaker for me years ago when I used it. Is it still the same?
That was a bug quite a long time ago....it hasn't been like that for a long as I can remember. Once Ableton bought Cycling (about 5 years ago?) the integration become much, much tighter.

It was good noticeably better by Live 10 (it became fully 'integrated' in to Live, no separate program) an its even better in 11....loads much faster, more efficient etc.

You can see what I mean by integrated with the DAW here: https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/live-11 ... e-devices/ but essentially M4L can now read or program just about anything in Live, warp markers, slices of a sample loaded in Simpler and even Groove Pool...The entire DAW is open to MAX, not just the audio.
Last edited by SLiC on Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

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KVRAF
19925 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:34 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:23 am
SLiC wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:38 am
In Live I can add a native MSEG with drawing tools and as many points as I like which is the modulation device I use most of the time. I look forward to this being added to Bitwig.
The difference is, Bitwig will get the MSEG modulator eventually ( :pray: ), but I doubt modulation scheme will ever change in Live :)
In the meanwhile, we can use a VST MSEG type plugin to fill the gap in Bitwig.

The way I worked around the annoyingly clumsy modulation setup in Live was to not use it. That was fine with me.

It was only when I switched to Bitwig that I started frequently using DAW modulation. And if it were not so well implemented with a fast workflow, I probably wouldn't. I would likely do the same as I used to do in Live which was use VST's, many of which have enough modulation built into them.

I could satisfy my musical interests in just about any DAW. The one thing I cannot stand is unreliable software with lots of crashes. One of the reasons I stay with Bitwig is because it is by far the most stable DAW I have ever used. V4 beta 3 had an actual crash the entire program bug which was fixed in beta 4. That's the only full app crash I have had in at least 2 years. Sometimes with Bitwig I realize I have been working on a project over some days and have never even bothered to save.

KVRAF
1770 posts since 11 Jan, 2009 from Portland, OR, USA

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:25 am

liquidsound wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:47 am
mholloway wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:10 am
No matter how hard people try to sell M4L in here, the fact is that its modulators still take absolute control over their destination parameters, making it so you can no longer modify the parameter, but only modulate it / figure out the 'initial' value via the modulator's offset controls, etc.
Use Offset and Depth to achieve the same thing.
Sell M4L? I'm a buyer in both camps.
You call it "the same thing" I call it a completely different workflow that doesn't sit well with me, at all. And I know many who feel this way. In BWS I have the same access to that parameter knob that I always had, and can set it wherever I want it, as I always would, even though it's modulated. In Live + M4L, the modulated parameter is "greyed out" and cannot be adjusted. I have to go to the M4L device and nudge the "offset" and "depth" knobs (as you say) to approximate a change to the 'starting' value...

this is a case where the 'end result' may technically be the same, but the workflow, afaic, is drastically better in one place than in the other.
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KVRAF
3485 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:48 am

mholloway wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:25 am
liquidsound wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:47 am
mholloway wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:10 am
No matter how hard people try to sell M4L in here, the fact is that its modulators still take absolute control over their destination parameters, making it so you can no longer modify the parameter, but only modulate it / figure out the 'initial' value via the modulator's offset controls, etc.
Use Offset and Depth to achieve the same thing.
Sell M4L? I'm a buyer in both camps.
You call it "the same thing" I call it a completely different workflow that doesn't sit well with me, at all. And I know many who feel this way. In BWS I have the same access to that parameter knob that I always had, and can set it wherever I want it, as I always would, even though it's modulated. In Live + M4L, the modulated parameter is "greyed out" and cannot be adjusted. I have to go to the M4L device and nudge the "offset" and "depth" knobs (as you say) to approximate a change to the 'starting' value...

this is a case where the 'end result' may technically be the same, but the workflow, afaic, is drastically better in one place than in the other.
well, I feel sorry for you and happy you found your way out at least.

For me I kind of like the fact that in one location I can control modulations in a “non hierarchy” way (and globally) which is enforced by BW.

Personal taste and workflow preferences naturally
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

KVRist
52 posts since 14 Nov, 2020

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:01 am

Does anyone know if The Grid device is likely to have MIDI out built in anytime soon?

KVRAF
7956 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:12 am

tactile_coast wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:01 am
Does anyone know if The Grid device is likely to have MIDI out built in anytime soon?
I don't think anyone knows for sure if it will be added, Bitwig don't really roadmap.

If it does come, its very unlikely to be anytime soon as Bitwig 4 is still in beta.
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live (+PUSH2), FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths (Summit, Hydrasynth, DM12, P8), A4 + RYTM, MPC Live, Poly Tracker, Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and Pedals

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KVRAF
19925 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:16 am

tactile_coast wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:01 am
Does anyone know if The Grid device is likely to have MIDI out built in anytime soon?
I do remember the Bitwig Devs saying that is planned... but no timetable and we users have no idea when!

KVRAF
3338 posts since 3 Oct, 2013 from Budapest

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 am

still dunno which DAWs have the best modulation system I can even play with the FL one for hours
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AGYyiQ0hWc
all of them are dangerous time-waster :D (integrated loopable free from MSEG + LFO + 4 mappable curve + random and it's just one device)
"Where we're workarounding, we don't NEED features." - powermat

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KVRAF
19925 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:15 am

mholloway wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:25 am
In Live + M4L, the modulated parameter is "greyed out" and cannot be adjusted. I have to go to the M4L device and nudge the "offset" and "depth" knobs (as you say) to approximate a change to the 'starting' value...

this is a case where the 'end result' may technically be the same, but the workflow, afaic, is drastically better in one place than in the other.
+1

I commonly put 2-3 random modulators on various parameters of a device. It would be so annoying not to be able to edit those parameters in the device anymore... for example, I have a synth and put a bit of randomization on filter cutoff, wavetable position and amp env decay/release. Now I can no longer edit those 3 in the synth, but I have to go to different locations to edit these common synth parameters. It is mind-boggling not to be able to edit the amp envelope in one place! I considered it a showstopper. I dealt with it when I was still using Live by not using Live modulation.

In Bitwig, I have lots of devices saved with modulators as the default device. I also have targets assigned, sometimes with depth 0 and the modulators named as part of the default. All the device parameters still editable in the device.

Btw, I appreciate how saving as default remembers all the aspects of how it was set up.

KVRAF
3485 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:43 am

I rather have the LFO independent from hierarchy system and be free to allocate it as I please including targeting other areas of the DAW (rarely needed).

And btw, any modulator in Live is free from hierarchy limitations which BW will probably never will.

Both are great and have clearly individual advantages.
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

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KVRAF
19925 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:10 pm

liquidsound wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:43 am
I rather have the LFO independent from hierarchy system and be free to allocate it as I please including targeting other areas of the DAW (rarely needed).
Riiight... so you would rather have a rarely needed function than something that affects workflow every time one uses the modulation? Anyway, that is a false equivalence. There is no either/or there.

You know, you don't have to come back with some unrelated function that Live does better, you can just admit that it sucks that when you modulate a parameter in Live you cannot directly edit the parameter anymore.

KVRAF
3485 posts since 30 May, 2006 from Hollow Earth

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:35 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:10 pm
liquidsound wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:43 am
I rather have the LFO independent from hierarchy system and be free to allocate it as I please including targeting other areas of the DAW (rarely needed).
Riiight... so you would rather have a rarely needed function than something that affects workflow every time one uses the modulation? Anyway, that is a false equivalence. There is no either/or there.

You know, you don't have to come back with some unrelated function that Live does better, you can just admit that it sucks that when you modulate a parameter in Live you cannot directly edit the parameter anymore.
I can edit the parameter no problem with a different workflow that you do not like. "Rarely" because I'm getting more and more into M4L in my music production and I'm barely scratched the surface with it and probably it will be more "frequent' in time, and while I found BW modulation system well integrate, I think it lack the almost unlimited ecosystem that M4L provides.

I was waiting for BW v4.0 hoping for a Grid MIDI out giving the DAW real power, as you well imagine and understand, but not yet. I will upgrade to v4.0 as I keep all my DAWs up to date every major one.

You don't need to read my posts at all and you can post anything you like that contradicts my view and I'm absolutely fine with it, you seems not to like views that are contrary to yours.
Diva - Dune - Omnisphere - Serum - Spire

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