Why you left Ableton?

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KVRAF
7707 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:56 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:47 am
apoclypse wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:42 am
It’s because if you don’t want to deal with the session view in Bitwig the arranger is actually useful and works pretty much like a traditional DAW like Cubase etc especially in the layout. I personally hate working in Live’s arranger. It’s not fun at all to me.
And how exactly is Bitwig's arranger any closer to Cubase than Live's?
It copied Lives arranger and Cubase's Toolkit :wink:

Live 11 arranger is much closer to tradition DAW workflow now- audio and midi comping, freeze, track linking (phase locked editing), groups, folders, decent audio and midi editing, MPE recording and editing, very good automation with curve drawing tools...Its a DAW!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
19457 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:44 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:40 am
OK, for the sake of friendly debate, If you left Live, what if anything would bring you back?

In clip editing was a big draw for me to BITWIG and still remains one of the remaining reasons to work in Bitwig's session mode.

Why can't we edit the audio clip in session view ! I do have a sample editor mapped to open and also use envelopes to mute bits of audio etc, so I get by- but you need to be in arrange mode to access some useful audio editing tools like Reverse seems unnecessary.

It isn't the end of the world, and in fact fast opening of an external sample editor can offer many advantages and is a good 'option'...but basic audio editing tools for clips seems like an obvious thing-
If Live had happened to add MPE support by the time I bought my Linnstrument, I doubt I would have switched away from it.

Since then I have gotten into hardware synths and so record straight to audio a lot more and then edit. I had forgotten that you could not edit an audio clip in session view in Live. I have not installed Live 11, but my impression from watching Live 11 videos is that the comping also isn't available in Session. Every video I saw showed comping only in Arrange.

I imagine Live would need some fundamental change to Session clips. Bitwig audio clips are containers and you can have multiple audio events inside. Maybe that is why audio editing and comping work in Bitwig's session view clips (just guessing). In-clip audio editing has had a huge improvement in Bitwig 4 from V3.3. It's a pretty unique and creative tool now.

KVRAF
7707 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:05 am

Yes, I remember ANTIC posting something on this, Bitwig is as you say 'fundamentally' different at the core to allow the event information ( or containers) to be hybrid and more flexible.

You are just forced to work in a certain way with Live as a DAW (as it has always been), you trigger and record your basic arrangement in session and then switch to arrangement for editing or just work in arrangement and edit in the timeline. It's more of a 'Live/Instrument' mode or 'DAW' mode.

Live has the alternative 'play me like an instrument' with PUSH thing going on which was always its strong point perhaps- This was how it started really (like a DJ Tool, it was audio only until V4!) and I don't think they ever though people would want to 'edit' in session mode...it was for live sessions!

I'm not sure Ableton want to make fundamental changes to Session clips..they want it to be rock solid for live performances and work well with PUSH! They could as I suggested add their own built in audio editor rather than only being able to launch a 3rd party device, or they may just make the 'arranger' view a lot more DAW like (which is what seems to be happening) and leave the session view alone!

It is however still the most frustrating thing about using Bitwig and Live...I always forget I cant edit in Session! The reality is I don't modulate or patch that much in either program ..but I do edit audio all of the time, every time!

(Coincidently, if Bigwig has got comping in before Live I probably wouldn't have upgraded to Live 11 and got back in top PUSH and MAX! Lets see who gets midi like audio pitch editing/quantising first, that's the next holy grail!)
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
19457 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:35 am

SLiC wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:05 am
It is however still the most frustrating thing about using Bitwig and Live...I always forget I cant edit in Session! The reality is I don't modulate or patch that much in either program ..but I do edit audio all of the time, every time!
The audio editing/comping is quite fun in Bitwig 4. Open a launcher clip in the editor. Put the clip into comping mode. Drag in a some other audio clips as takes. Then comp in some bits of the takes. Then you can delete the takes and the comped bits stay. Alt-drag on a take slides the audio and shift snaps to grid.

Then the individual audio events in that clip can each be affected by the new Operators and Expression randomization. So for example, select a few of the comped audio events and add random panning so that each time the clip loops, those events pan differently... or an individual event can play every other loop and so on. And if that is a 2 bar clip, you can use the Expand function to turn it into say an 8 bar loop including the randomizations... then go in and again comp in some other bits.

I've been having more fun with audio than I ever remember...

And yeah, if they add micro=pitch editing of audio, that would be the cherries on top! :love:

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KVRAF
9380 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:48 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:35 am
The audio editing/comping is quite fun in Bitwig 4...
The one thing that's missing - please suggest it to devs, if you'd like it too - is an operator that would choose random take for selected event.
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KVRAF
19457 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:06 pm

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:48 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:35 am
The audio editing/comping is quite fun in Bitwig 4...
The one thing that's missing - please suggest it to devs, if you'd like it too - is an operator that would choose random take for selected event.
Yeah, I have thought about that. It is an enticing possibility.

The feature request I sent in today is that I would like to be able to drag any audio clip in the Launcher or Timeline into a take lane. Also, it would be cool to have a key option when dragging an audio clip onto another audio clip (not in the comping editor) and have that then become a take with of the audio clip it was dropped onto.

KVRer
22 posts since 12 Jun, 2021 from Barcelona

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am
JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
...I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So many misconceptions in one short sentence...
I didn't realise there was a blueprint for what's the right or wrong perception of a music-making tool (let's call it that for the sake of consensus).
Do you keep it? Can I see it?
And there was me thinking the whole point of this thread was to share one's personal perception. My bad.
Healthy discussion by all means. Arrogant dismissal, no thanks.

Jokes aside...
antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am
JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
So recently I discovered Bitwig and turned out to be exactly what I thought Live was in the first place.
Why are people thinking that Bitwig is any more trafitional/linear DAW than Live is?
I can give a few of my reasons (if I may...)
Proper shortcut management, proper time/bar counter, proper bounce, lasso-selection of clips, a toolbar layout with a logic to it, track headers on the left, help that's not a tiny box on the left-bottom corner (actually the help in Bitwig is the best I've ever seen)... There are many more, these are the few just off the top of my head right now.
Again, these are down to each musician's trajectory and past experiences (mine started in 1991 with Cubase on an Atari).
Your mileage may vary, and that's fair enough.

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KVRAF
9380 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am

JMLZ wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:35 am
antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:29 am
JMLZ wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:43 am
...I think it's an amazing program (not sure I should call it a DAW), but I don't play live and have zero interest in sample libraries.
So many misconceptions in one short sentence...
I didn't realise there was a blueprint for what's the right or wrong perception of a music-making tool (let's call it that for the sake of consensus).
Do you keep it? Can I see it?
And there was me thinking the whole point of this thread was to share one's personal perception. My bad.
Healthy discussion by all means. Arrogant dismissal, no thanks.

Jokes aside...
1) Softwares with much less features are considered a DAW, so I'm not sure why Live wouldn't be? If I'm not mistaken Live 1.0 didn't even have MIDI and it was for audio only, unlike Cubase which was the opposite. So it's even more of a DAW than Cubase was ;)

2) If you watch most Live tutorials, almost no one uses Session View for actual production. Obviously it is used by many to live perform their stuff (often produced in other DAW), but that's not only what it's for and it is at least competent for everything else

3) I've no idea what connection is there between "sample libraries" and Live - they're universal

I think you have a very narrow concept of what Live is and what it can do (basically an advanced loop player?!) and that would explain your opinion. But it's like if I would say that Cubase is a fancy tape recorder... :scared:

I appreciate your comments about Bitwig - thanks! :tu:
Last edited by antic604 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7707 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:28 am

Interestingly the thing I like about Live is that you don't need to memorise a lot of shortcuts and you don't need a toolkit (which is quite an old fashion paradigm). The 'key' and 'midi' buttons do make is very easy to map anything to anything, its still one of my favourite methods and its hidden away in a menu. The shortcuts I do use are all pretty much mapped to a midi controller as I tend to be hovering over my controller rather than my QWERTY keyboard (which I often move right of my desk!) For example, track markers (locators) can be mapped to midi very easily- I can use my Push to access 64 track markers and that pretty useful in the arranger.

Live has always had context sensitive help (it actually has two help panels, can be large on left as well)...I am glad Bitwig added it as well, but I find there is more information in Live (more space in the help panel!) and its cool tat when people make MAX devices then can also display the help directly in the DAW.

If you are in arrangement view (standard DAW Mode) you have a timeline in minutes/seconds at the bottom (you may have missed it!). You can obviously also Automate Tempo and Time Signature Changes in Ableton Live's Arrangement View

Live can also change time base and tempo 'per clip' in session view, that a pretty cool way to build a more dynamic track that doesn't have a fixed tempo or time base all the way through the track.

Is Bitwig more traditional' than Live as a linear DAW? Yes in many ways- TimeLine on the tops, track control on the left...But Live was never built to be traditional and personally I prefer the way clips run (with the launcher on the right not the top) so I guess it makes sense they have the track stuff on the right- I have been using Live so long it makes more sense to me in session mode than Bitwig, but that's partly just what I am used to in a 'traditional' clip launcher!
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

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KVRAF
9380 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:42 am

SLiC wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:28 am
I am glad Bitwig added it as well, but I find there is more information in Live (more space in the help panel!)...
I don't think Live's help box is more informative than Bitwig's interactive help for all Grid modules and all native devices??

Image

https://youtu.be/DWjYedds-RQ
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

KVRAF
7707 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:01 am

antic604 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:42 am
SLiC wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:28 am
I am glad Bitwig added it as well, but I find there is more information in Live (more space in the help panel!)...
I don't think Live's help box is more informative than Bitwig's interactive help for all Grid modules and all native devices??

Image

https://youtu.be/DWjYedds-RQ
Yes, They copied that method completely from Ableton/MAX, open M4L, click on alt click on any M4L device and that pops us, can be run, edited and copied to a patch to run :wink:

MAX actually has far better help resources (it needs them!)
PC, Studio One, BWS, Live, FL Studio, Renoise, Reason, X32 Desk, Hardware Synths, Drum Machines + Eurorack, TD27 V Drums, Guitars & Basses

KVRian
659 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:30 am

antic604 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:47 am
apoclypse wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:42 am
It’s because if you don’t want to deal with the session view in Bitwig the arranger is actually useful and works pretty much like a traditional DAW like Cubase etc especially in the layout. I personally hate working in Live’s arranger. It’s not fun at all to me.
And how exactly is Bitwig's arranger any closer to Cubase than Live's?
Bitwig has a very "traditional" DAW layout. Inspector > Track header > Arrange view > Browser. That is familiar to anyone who uses S1, Logic, Cubase etc. You can even have the mixer open in the bottom like a "traditional" DAW and view you track levels just by clicking on the track header and looking at the inspector. If you are coming from another DAW you can get reasonably comfortable in Bitwig fairly quickly.

When I first used Live (back in version 4) I couldn't wrap my head around it because it looked and worked so differently than any DAW I was using at the time. It wasn't until version 8 that I took the time to learn it and then it made more sense to me. But even so the way snapping works, the way everything is laid out still gives me a headache as I feel I have to keep jumping from section to section in Live to do what I can easily do in the inspector or in the editor in other DAWs.
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

KVRer
22 posts since 12 Jun, 2021 from Barcelona

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:57 am

antic604 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am
1) Softwares with much less features are considered a DAW, so I'm not sure why Live wouldn't be? If I'm not mistaken Live 1.0 didn't even have MIDI and it was for audio only, unlike Cubase which was the opposite. So it's even more of a DAW than Cubase was ;)
Indeed, the term DAW didn't even exist in the Atari days. That came much later. I wouldn't call Cubase 3.0 (the one I started out with) a DAW by any stretch of the imagination. It was universally known as a MIDI software sequencer.
antic604 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am
2) If you watch most Live tutorials, almost no one uses Session View for actual production. Obviously it is used by many to live perform their stuff (often produced in other DAW), but that's not only what it's for and it is at least competent for everything else
I agree it's not "only" for that. But my perception (again, subjective to every individual) is that that's what it's optimised for, and where its origins lie. Also bearing in mind that by "playing live" I don't mean on a stage in front of an audience. I mean actually "playing" the program, via Push or whatever. I feel more comfortable with the idea of programming my music. Bitwig suits my needs much better in that respect.
antic604 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am
3) I've no idea what connection is there between "sample libraries" and Live - they're universal
Of course they are. Again, that's what I perceive Live to be focused on. Not too compatible with my approach to music-making.
antic604 wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:09 am
I think you have a very narrow concept of what Live is and what it can do (basically an advanced loop player?!) and that would explain your opinion. But it's like if I would say that Cubase is a fancy tape recorder... :scared:
You can think whatever you fancy, mate. That's the beauty of discussion. As with any software and hardware, I've read the manual cover to cover more than once, and I know very well what Live does and how it does it.
It's a matter of flavour and approach. Not for me.

KVRian
659 posts since 17 Oct, 2018

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:43 am

I'm not a heavy Grid user but this says it all for me.

But this is all I need to know (Poli a relatively simple synth):
Image

vs

This (Polymer an equally simple synth):
Image

I like M4l in theory but in practice, no thanks. Even compared to similar synth to Poli in Reaktor (Junatik) Reaktor doesn't need anywhere the level of complexity as Max does to do pretty much the same thing.

Image
Studio One 5.2 // Bitwig 3.3.4 // Logic Pro X 10.6 // Ableton 11 // Reason 11 // MPC // Force // Maschine

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KVRAF
9380 posts since 4 Jan, 2017 from Warsaw, Poland

Post Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:54 am

apoclypse wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:43 am
Image
Now this makes it quite clear what Bitwig meant by "machine gun" release cycle :D
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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