It has begun...Reason 3 is close at hand!!

[gizmo]

Check out the puzzle in progress on the Prop's site sometime this week, there are some assemblages in both User and General Forums. It looks like the mixer has gotten a very major overhaul, perhaps foreshadowing of things to come. Hate to say it but I like the look...

[AD80]

Basically Reason is for those that are actually making music instead of fiddling aroud with zillions of VSTs, and at the same time want a stable, fun to use and efficient application. I love that they upgrade it only once or twice per year (but then big time), because you need time to really get into the new devices and use them to their full potential. And they don't need to update Reason for stability issues, because there are none

So if you're using VST's you're NOT making music?? Please. If you're too dumb to learn the ins and outs of Reason thats your problem. I know it very well and I know its limitations and I want more frequent updates. If you dont thats fine, but thats your problem. Oh and I dont have any stability issues with Tracktion or EXT either .

[Meffy]

[not to anyone in particular]

Oyoyoy...

1) It's a tool. A very nice tool, IMO. A somewhat eccentric tool.

2) It's not God. Not a major one anyhow.

3) If you like it, use it. If not, okay. *shrug* Enjoy whatever you like, no skin off my back either way.

4) It's possible to love the product, like the Props as devs and people, and still not be a "slavish, drooling lap-dog." Let's stick to reality, kids, don't make my tail twitch. ;-) It's not a doggy tail.

Meffy

[Reverend Rhythm]

Well, I like it... but I like my VSTis as well... and my VST and DX plug-ins. Meffy, you're right. They are just tools.

[Meffy]

Well, I like it... but I like my VSTis as well... and my VST and DX plug-ins. Meffy, you're right. They are just tools.

*pawshake* :-) A good tool is whatever gets the notes out of your head and into the air.

Meffy

[Muzik 4 Machines]

i think its a new mixer, its been asked so much
a small 8 input mixer

[headquest]

Whether it was substantial or not is definately debatable.

Well the bits of Reason that I personally use it for have all been added during the updates... there's no way I would be using Reason v1. Specifically I'm talking about the NN-XT sampler, the Maelstrom synth, Scream, and the wonderful RV7000 reverb. Take away those and you're left with a lame program with god-aweful sequencing! So I was happy with v.2.5 and bearing in mind the upgrade was also free I don;t think we can really complain

I also agree that you don't really need endless updates and patches for a program as stable as Reason - and we're talking REALLY stable here - FAR more stable than FL in my experience (I use/have used FL as well).

If you buy a violin you can still play it 20 years later - probably much better than when you first got it! A good product should last more than 6 months! And as users we should have a slightly longer attention span!

The release date of 2.5 isn't the point at all. I'm considering where FL Studio, Orion, and Reason all were in November of 2000 when Reason was first released, and where they all are now and how much improvements have been added during that time. FL Studio and Orion have gone on to become massively powerful, all in one studios where you truly can get pretty much everything done under one roof. Reason is still at the status of scratchpad. The others have had countless updates with countless features added to sequencing, a synth or two here and there, and even audio recording and editing, beatslicing built in, support for multi formats built in, and in the case of FL, the list of improvements goes on and on and on, and FL 5's featurelist looks like it has more improvements than everything that's come to Reason over that same 4 years. During all that development time, the Props wasted time take a look at what came to Reason. Sure they made a new sampler, a new synth, a new FX or two but what about all the other "features" that are completely missing from Reason. Just take a look at FL to see what features I'm talking about.

Yeah, I have it (but no longer really use it). I know what you mean about features too, FL is packed with them now. Having said that, since Live 4 came out I've mostly been neglecting FL, because the big draw of FL was the pattern sequencing, which Live 4 now does much better imho.

Also I found FL quite unstable, especially when used via ReWire. FL4 often crashes on my system.

But that's one area where Reason really scores highly - stability. Also outstanding CPU compared with any other music program that I use.

Lastly I mostly use Reason (now) as a sound source. Particularly ReDrum and NN-XT Orkester library, with its samples of a complete symphony orchestra. Neither FL nor Orion offer anything comparable to the sound library that ships with Reason. In this sense I think Reason has uses beyond the usual Trance stuff. While there may be plenty of orchestral sample libraries out there (Garitan looks very tempting...) I think it's really impressive to have such a top-drawer collection shipping with Reason.

[xg2]

But what could they do at this point to get them into "competing form" after they've lost years of development to the competition. Their development cycle is far too slow to expect that they will put out anything remotely as capable and well-spec'd as the competition at this point.

Don't quite know what you mean when you say they have lost years of development... Reason 2.5 came out summer last year, and altho it was a free upgrade it was quite a substantial one.

Also, I don't think that Reason is competing with other products in quite the way that the big sequencers are... although it is not unique, Orion, Storm and Project 5 don't have anything like the same foothold in the market,

Gee, I wonder why that would be...

It couldn't be because Reason is hyped beyond all recognition by the mags., could it?

What with Reason being so much better (sarcasm) than Orion, Buzz, Renoise, Psycle, any other VST compatible program on the planet...

Most of the problems with Reason are down to its having been designed for the 1990s...

Do the Propellerheads even know that VSTs exist?

Cue the "but Reason is 'the most stable' app." bull...

So what? Renoise doesn't crash. I'm sure Orion, FL, etc.etc. don't crash, unless you load an old freeware VSTi that you can live without. And it won't crash halfway through writing a song, it will crash the moment you LOAD the VSTi that it doesn't like, so it's hardly a cause for concern.

Reason has nothing going for it. Not in the current market. And it will have even less going for it as time goes on, and all the other apps. get even more powerful.

How do I use Garritan Personal Orchestra in Reason? I can't. How do I use the effects of MY choice in Reason? I can't.

Oh, I forgot. "Just Rewire it to Cubase."

But I don't have Cubase.
And why should I run TWO apps. when every other program on the market can run VSTs already?

Because Reason said it's got to be that way, so it must be so.

And 'Reason' is the most bloody stupid name for a piece of software I've ever heard!

[xg2]

Basically Reason is for those that are actually making music instead of fiddling aroud with zillions of VSTs,

What's the matter?
Jealous?

I'd rather have the CHOICE of zillions of VSTs, than be stuck with the synths and effects that came with the program.

In what way is this a good thing?

Oh, I forgot - Reason does it that way, so it must be good, no matter how obviously bad it is.

and at the same time want a stable,

You gotta love those Reason supporters! They ALWAYS put the word "stable" into their description of Reason, thereby trying to imply that all the other apps. (that support VST, of course) are UNSTABLE.

But they AREN'T unstable, are they?

So why keep lying as if they are? Because it helps you to keep believing that Reason really is good without VST support.

fun to use and efficient application.

That would apply to just about every other VST compatible app. out there.

I love that they upgrade it only once or twice per year (but then big time),

I didn't notice any 'big time' upgrades to Reason. Any VST support? Proper use of screen space? Getting out of the 'We must make it look like a real hardware rack, even though this is a computer screen, and could be put to much better use if we got out of the 1990s and gave up trying to emulate the look of hardware' mindset....

because you need time to really get into the new devices and use them to their full potential.

Yes, funny that - I find the same thing when I download loads of FREE VSTs each month...

Oh, I forgot again - you don't have that privilege if you use Reason...

And they don't need to update Reason for stability issues, because there are none

Twice in one post! Well done!

Reason is stable! Who cares that it doesn't offer VST support? It's 'stable'. So is just about every other VST compatible app. out there! Otherwise you'd be reading about them all over the KVR forums...

What price stability?
What price stupidity, more like.

So if you're using VST's you're NOT making music?? Please. If you're too dumb to learn the ins and outs of Reason thats your problem. I know it very well and I know its limitations and I want more frequent updates. If you dont thats fine, but thats your problem. Oh and I dont have any stability issues with Tracktion or EXT either .

Exactly.

I don't want more frequent updates to Reason. I'm fed up with the press hyping it up and worshipping it as if it's something amazing. And I'm even more fed up of hearing newcomers to computer music buying Reason, and then saying "It's like a whole rack of synths, that would cost you thousands of pounds if it was real!", and I roll my eyes too. Idiots.

[soulkraka]

And it won't crash halfway through writing a song, it will crash the moment you LOAD the VSTi that it doesn't like, so it's hardly a cause for concern.

I saw your point until you said that. You've never loaded a vsti in the middle of working on something?
you must (a) be pretty darn good at having the whole song finished in your head before you start working on it and (b) have a really fast comp to load all those vstis when you open your app.

[xg2]

Whether it was substantial or not is definately debatable.

Well the bits of Reason that I personally use it for have all been added during the updates... there's no way I would be using Reason v1. Specifically I'm talking about the NN-XT sampler, the Maelstrom synth, Scream, and the wonderful RV7000 reverb. Take away those and you're left with a lame program with god-aweful sequencing!

How very true.
Funny - when I was saying that three years ago (or whenever Reason came out, and the hype-fest began), its users were telling me this wasn't so, that it was amazing, like a "whole rack of synths", etc.

So I was happy with v.2.5 and bearing in mind the upgrade was also free I don;t think we can really complain

I also agree that you don't really need endless updates and patches for a program as stable as Reason - and we're talking REALLY stable here - FAR more stable than FL in my experience (I use/have used FL as well).

I rest my case...

"Stable, stable, stable, stable, stable, stable."

That's because it's limited. Protracker was stable. Would you recommend that to people nowadays?

If you buy a violin you can still play it 20 years later - probably much better than when you first got it! A good product should last more than 6 months! And as users we should have a slightly longer attention span!

Well, the VST compatible apps. will last for more than 6 months, and longer than Reason, precisely because they offer VST support. They are always up to date with the latest synths, simply because they support VST.
How can Reason hope to keep up? (Or hype to keep up, more like).

The release date of 2.5 isn't the point at all. I'm considering where FL Studio, Orion, and Reason all were in November of 2000 when Reason was first released, and where they all are now and how much improvements have been added during that time. FL Studio and Orion have gone on to become massively powerful, all in one studios where you truly can get pretty much everything done under one roof. Reason is still at the status of scratchpad.

How very true!

The others have had countless updates with countless features added to sequencing, a synth or two here and there, and even audio recording and editing, beatslicing built in, support for multi formats built in, and in the case of FL, the list of improvements goes on and on and on, and FL 5's featurelist looks like it has more improvements than everything that's come to Reason over that same 4 years. During all that development time, the Props wasted time take a look at what came to Reason. Sure they made a new sampler, a new synth, a new FX or two but what about all the other "features" that are completely missing from Reason. Just take a look at FL to see what features I'm talking about.

Exactly. But the Reason worshippers will buy it anyway. Look at the pathetic way they're spending time trying to piece together the pieces of the jigsaw picture - why?

Yeah, I have it (but no longer really use it). I know what you mean about features too, FL is packed with them now. Having said that, since Live 4 came out I've mostly been neglecting FL, because the big draw of FL was the pattern sequencing, which Live 4 now does much better imho.

Also I found FL quite unstable, especially when used via ReWire. FL4 often crashes on my system.

But that's one area where Reason really scores highly - stability. Also outstanding CPU compared with any other music program that I use.

Yes, who cares whether it lacks VST support? As long as it's 'stable'. It has 'outstanding' CPU use because it doesn't offer VST support, and even then you can get outstanding CPU use if you use the right VSTs.
You sound like you're trying to convince yourself of Reason's worth - like most Reason users...

Lastly I mostly use Reason (now) as a sound source. Particularly ReDrum and NN-XT Orkester library, with its samples of a complete symphony orchestra. Neither FL nor Orion offer anything comparable to the sound library that ships with Reason. In this sense I think Reason has uses beyond the usual Trance stuff. While there may be plenty of orchestral sample libraries out there (Garitan looks very tempting...) I think it's really impressive to have such a top-drawer collection shipping with Reason.

I thought loads of people said the included sounds were pretty weak when you turned off the effects?

[xg2]

And it won't crash halfway through writing a song, it will crash the moment you LOAD the VSTi that it doesn't like, so it's hardly a cause for concern.

I saw your point until you said that. You've never loaded a vsti in the middle of working on something?

Renoise has an auto save function.
I load up all the VSTs I want to use at the start of a song. I can't remember the last time one crashed Renoise. If I was going to load up a new VST that I'd never used before, I'd press the 'Save' icon before opening the VST. Simple.
Well worth the benefits that VST support offers.

you must (a) be pretty darn good at having the whole song finished in your head before you start working on it and (b) have a really fast comp to load all those vstis when you open your app.

You're talking as if VSTs randomly crash your app. I think the last VST that crashed an app. that I used was a free one, about three years ago. Every VST I now have won't crash Renoise. So it's stable.

[defjamm]

I hope not. My hope would be for better comp & EQ and an improved sequencer. I also wonder about the possibility of hard-disk streaming for the sampler. But just a new synth wouldn't cut it.

+an improved audio-engine. the current one sucks imho(and i like reason).

[Reverend Rhythm]

I'd like that too.

[quincy]

Some people see limitation as a challenge, and this perhaps appeals to a certain market.

Think about back before cheap software and computers, when all that existed was expensive hardware - you had to learn your equipment inside out in order to get the most out of the huge amount of money spent.

Lets face it, a hell of a lot of people do choose to have a VST host and have far too many choices of plugins.

If you have your limited kit, and you know how to push it in many different ways to get great results, then thats a good place to be i'd say.

Some people (like me) never get there because they always want to have more choice, and more toys to play with.

XG2 - i used to own Reason and i got rid of it because it didn't suit me. But the appeal of the software was immediately obvious, and it was great fun to use. That counts for a lot. Modularity still shits on most other music software (side-chaining and other trickery).

It still has its place in the market, and people will keep buying it - you watch. There's no need to try and persuage everyone they've been duped. Plenty of people are happy with their choice of Reason and maybe an accompanying sequencer. Which by the way many support reason through rewire, not just cubase so that was a daft argument.

No need to preach the evil of reason!