DP 11 is out

[antic604]

I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive

In what way is Bitwig's handling of multi-timbral instruments unintuitive? Or are you still insisting your out of date knowledge is current?

Well, I guess in the same way that someone "raised" on Bitwig would assume that in every DAW you can just pop in an LFO and modulate a VST parameters however you like. I'm lucky to have only started using DAWs in 2017 and I can only imagine how weird would Live or Bitwig feel to me, if I began my adventure with Cubase or DP 30 years ago

[pinki]

I used DP exclusively from 2000 to 2020. There isn’t much I don’t know about it. In mid 2020 my experience with DP10 and Motu as a developer reluctantly forced me to leave DP for Studio One.
The one thing to understand about DP is that it was once the most stable and solid DAW in the business, but after around 2015 things started to change for the worse. There are major bugs in DP going back to around that time, that Motu simply refuse to fix.
Motu do updates about once a year and good luck if you think your bug is going to get fixed.
Motu seem to have lost the plot frankly and DP felt (like all their other virtual instruments are), like abandonware since 2015.
I sincerely hope management at Motu have employed new enthusiastic programmers and designers to take DP to new heights.
For me Studio One is just a breath of fresh air. I like lots and sure I miss chunks and v racks, but I don’t miss the endless crashing and the feeling of working on a DAW that peaked at version 5.

[xbitz]

^^^ there is no good or bad choice (ofc. if a DAW is constantly crashing it can't be a good choice), DAWs have different strength and weakness

Screenshot 2021-07-07 at 12.53.29.png

https://www.admiralbumblebee.com/DAW-Chart.html
in electronic music genres, FL/Bitiwg can be used extremely well(check the modulation row, I can't even choose between them both are great and Bitwig can import FLS projects now) but in other areas (audio/mixing etc.), the other DAWs are potentially better choices, so the right tool for the right job

there is a genre usage poll on FL forum https://forum.image-line.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=259534 which shows it quite well the result isn't an accident

[woodsdenis]

I used DP exclusively from 2000 to 2020. There isn’t much I don’t know about it. In mid 2020 my experience with DP10 and Motu as a developer reluctantly forced me to leave DP for Studio One.
The one thing to understand about DP is that it was once the most stable and solid DAW in the business, but after around 2015 things started to change for the worse. There are major bugs in DP going back to around that time, that Motu simply refuse to fix.
Motu do updates about once a year and good luck if you think your bug is going to get fixed.
Motu seem to have lost the plot frankly and DP felt (like all their other virtual instruments are), like abandonware since 2015.
I sincerely hope management at Motu have employed new enthusiastic programmers and designers to take DP to new heights.
For me Studio One is just a breath of fresh air. I like lots and sure I miss chunks and v racks, but I don’t miss the endless crashing and the feeling of working on a DAW that peaked at version 5.

Fair and accurate summation, used Performer (midi only ) in 1987 on countless records and film scores and DP when it came out. Very stable initially and then became less so with every release, unfortunately. Maybe it has improved but I have moved on like many others. A real shame because it has some truly amazing features especially for film score work and it became a mainstay for live track playback because of its stability and chunks. As usual, YMMV download the demo and see does it fit your workflow.

[jonljacobi]

I can’t speak to stability as DP has never been my DAW, however, the last couple of releases seem pretty enthusiastic. I have the similar issue with Bitwig though. While it keeps acquiring new abilities, and the devs seem enthusiastic, it retains a few issues that force me elsewhere. Stability is not one them however.

[auricle]

I've tried the demo of version 11 excited to try the MPE features with my Seaboard Rise. I was disappointed to find that the per-note pitch editing uses a separate lane with arbitrary numbers as a scale. If I want to change a slide from one note to another, that's a lot of trial and error. Why can't they show per-note pitch bend on the piano roll itself like Bitwig and Waveform do?

[medienhexer]

It seems to me people have forsaken complexity for simplicity and a clean GUI, and IMO it’s for the worse for the most part. It’s why I switched from Logic 8 to DP 7. Logic is still complex, but some things are just mind boggling to someone that used it since v4 like the fact you have to turn on “advanced features”. Anyway it’s all good, I’m just a big fan of DP, why wouldn’t you expect me to defend it?

As with everything, that’s very much personal preference. I started with Logic Audio Discovery 3, had to leave at version 6, when Apple acquired emagic and returned with the first intel Mac.

I never got the issues some have with version 10‘s GUI. Looked immediately familiar and improved to me.

Having more of a GarageBand plus feature set by default and being able to activate the rest in Preferences makes sense for newbies and is acceptable to me personally, since I have to open Preferences on a new install to set up my audio interface, anyway. And being there, it was very obvious to me I could activate what I need. I usually don’t bother with scoring. So being able to completely hide it is kinda neat.


*Rant not specifically at you but it fits the type of argument usually connected*:

So while I acknowledge it may be an inconvenience to some, Apple did make the right decision for a user like me. And Apple will have a clear picture from the number of support cases, if their design choice was an improvement for a majority or for a minority of users.

[medienhexer]

I used DP exclusively from 2000 to 2020. There isn’t much I don’t know about it. In mid 2020 my experience with DP10 and Motu as a developer reluctantly forced me to leave DP for Studio One.
The one thing to understand about DP is that it was once the most stable and solid DAW in the business, but after around 2015 things started to change for the worse. There are major bugs in DP going back to around that time, that Motu simply refuse to fix.
Motu do updates about once a year and good luck if you think your bug is going to get fixed.
Motu seem to have lost the plot frankly and DP felt (like all their other virtual instruments are), like abandonware since 2015.
I sincerely hope management at Motu have employed new enthusiastic programmers and designers to take DP to new heights.
For me Studio One is just a breath of fresh air. I like lots and sure I miss chunks and v racks, but I don’t miss the endless crashing and the feeling of working on a DAW that peaked at version 5.

From what I remember, the Carbon -> Cocoa transition was a long process but ultimately successful. Didn’t the issues start when they started supporting Windows?

That probably more than doubled complexity. I wonder if they were able to scale the size of the development team(s)

[medienhexer]

In DPs case a single VEP plug in can access over 700 midi tracks compared to the CPU hit that all of those individual multi instrument tracks creates in Logic or I’m sure Bitwig.

I‘m not sure it’s a fair comparison. One feature I would love in Logic is DP’s automatic rendering of tracks to audio. My understanding is that it’s completely transparent (you don’t even know it‘s happening). So of course, with the majority of Instrument tracks not being rendered in real time but played back as audio, that frees a lot of resources.

And didn’t DP also implement for AU the feature that makes VST3 interesting (no CPU load while no audio is processed)? That’s a huge factor as well. Usually, to avoid denormalization, many plugins process low level noise all the time. So in Logic and the others, a plugin never sleeps.

As for racks - I think the basics are very similar to Track Stacks/Folders, aren’t they?

[pinki]

I used DP exclusively from 2000 to 2020. There isn’t much I don’t know about it. In mid 2020 my experience with DP10 and Motu as a developer reluctantly forced me to leave DP for Studio One.
The one thing to understand about DP is that it was once the most stable and solid DAW in the business, but after around 2015 things started to change for the worse. There are major bugs in DP going back to around that time, that Motu simply refuse to fix.
Motu do updates about once a year and good luck if you think your bug is going to get fixed.
Motu seem to have lost the plot frankly and DP felt (like all their other virtual instruments are), like abandonware since 2015.
I sincerely hope management at Motu have employed new enthusiastic programmers and designers to take DP to new heights.
For me Studio One is just a breath of fresh air. I like lots and sure I miss chunks and v racks, but I don’t miss the endless crashing and the feeling of working on a DAW that peaked at version 5.

From what I remember, the Carbon -> Cocoa transition was a long process but ultimately successful. Didn’t the issues start when they started supporting Windows?

That probably more than doubled complexity. I wonder if they were able to scale the size of the development team(s)

Yes the Windows era was pretty bad. From what I hear DP on Windows is still pretty bad

[machinesworking]

I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive

In what way is Bitwig's handling of multi-timbral instruments unintuitive? Or are you still insisting your out of date knowledge is current?

One, there is no vanilla MIDI tack in Bitwig. I’m old school, so it took me a while to figure out to use an Instrument track, especially already knowing that you need a plug in to address hardware, then there was the choice between track and plug in, both pointing to a track named Kontakt and in the plug in out also named Kontakt. I don’t know when they added it as a choice in the track itself as opposed to the information panel, but when I was learning Bitwig the only video I found on it only showed how to access it from that panel.

My point was that unless you know how a DAW addresses MIDI you can be pretty lost, I didn’t have near the brain mush figuring out Reapers tracks, because it was obvious since any track is any kind of thing, audio, midi, instrument, VCA fader, etc. With Bitwig there is a separation of church and state, to a degree, and you even need a plug in to address the outside world of hardware. It’s all (mostly) elegant when you know it, but I’m just pointing out that DAWs are all different and modern ideas don’t IMO translate always to easier to figure out, unless you started with those ideas.

[machinesworking]

In DPs case a single VEP plug in can access over 700 midi tracks compared to the CPU hit that all of those individual multi instrument tracks creates in Logic or I’m sure Bitwig.

I‘m not sure it’s a fair comparison. One feature I would love in Logic is DP’s automatic rendering of tracks to audio. My understanding is that it’s completely transparent (you don’t even know it‘s happening). So of course, with the majority of Instrument tracks not being rendered in real time but played back as audio, that frees a lot of resources.

And didn’t DP also implement for AU the feature that makes VST3 interesting (no CPU load while no audio is processed)? That’s a huge factor as well. Usually, to avoid denormalization, many plugins process low level noise all the time. So in Logic and the others, a plugin never sleeps.

As for racks - I think the basics are very similar to Track Stacks/Folders, aren’t they?

DPs PreGen as they call their buffer rendering is similar in CPU to Logic. From tests I’ve done the hit is only maybe at most 10% worse in Logic. In terms of racks, no Track Stacks are pretty unique to Logic and Reaper I believe, having folders implement master faders etc. is pretty cool, in DP folders are vanilla space saving devices.

If you meant V-Racks that’s something completely different, it’s a virtual rack of gear that exist outside of the individual Sequences, so it can address all versions of your song, or you can play guitar or a VSTi over your entire set of songs.

[pdxindy]

I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive

In what way is Bitwig's handling of multi-timbral instruments unintuitive? Or are you still insisting your out of date knowledge is current?

One, there is no vanilla MIDI tack in Bitwig. I’m old school, so it took me a while to figure out to use an Instrument track, especially already knowing that you need a plug in to address hardware, then there was the choice between track and plug in, both pointing to a track named Kontakt and in the plug in out also named Kontakt. I don’t know when they added it as a choice in the track itself as opposed to the information panel, but when I was learning Bitwig the only video I found on it only showed how to access it from that panel.

According to you, when you have a midi (instrument) track that you want to send to a multi-timbral instrument like Kontakt, selecting Kontakt and the midi channel right on that track is profoundly unintuitive... Not sure it is even possible to exaggerate more than that.

Selecting I/O options directly on the track has always been in Bitwig. You can also select I/O in the Inspector, but that is an option, not a necessity. You obviously just don't know Bitwig very well.

[apoclypse]

It seems to me people have forsaken complexity for simplicity and a clean GUI, and IMO it’s for the worse for the most part. It’s why I switched from Logic 8 to DP 7. Logic is still complex, but some things are just mind boggling to someone that used it since v4 like the fact you have to turn on “advanced features”. Anyway it’s all good, I’m just a big fan of DP, why wouldn’t you expect me to defend it?

As with everything, that’s very much personal preference. I started with Logic Audio Discovery 3, had to leave at version 6, when Apple acquired emagic and returned with the first intel Mac.

I never got the issues some have with version 10‘s GUI. Looked immediately familiar and improved to me.

Having more of a GarageBand plus feature set by default and being able to activate the rest in Preferences makes sense for newbies and is acceptable to me personally, since I have to open Preferences on a new install to set up my audio interface, anyway. And being there, it was very obvious to me I could activate what I need. I usually don’t bother with scoring. So being able to completely hide it is kinda neat.


*Rant not specifically at you but it fits the type of argument usually connected*:

So while I acknowledge it may be an inconvenience to some, Apple did make the right decision for a user like me. And Apple will have a clear picture from the number of support cases, if their design choice was an improvement for a majority or for a minority of users.

Also if you already had a Logic 9 Pro install, LPX would default to Advanced Mode anyway.

[apoclypse]

I find the way Logic and Bitwig handle multi instruments to be profoundly unintuitive

In what way is Bitwig's handling of multi-timbral instruments unintuitive? Or are you still insisting your out of date knowledge is current?

One, there is no vanilla MIDI tack in Bitwig. I’m old school, so it took me a while to figure out to use an Instrument track, especially already knowing that you need a plug in to address hardware, then there was the choice between track and plug in, both pointing to a track named Kontakt and in the plug in out also named Kontakt. I don’t know when they added it as a choice in the track itself as opposed to the information panel, but when I was learning Bitwig the only video I found on it only showed how to access it from that panel.

According to you, when you have a midi (instrument) track that you want to send to a multi-timbral instrument like Kontakt, selecting Kontakt and the midi channel right on that track is profoundly unintuitive... Not sure it is even possible to exaggerate more than that.

Selecting I/O options directly on the track has always been in Bitwig. You can also select I/O in the Inspector, but that is an option, not a necessity. You obviously just don't know Bitwig very well.

I would also like to point out that Logic and Bitwig both have pretty good manuals that walk you through all this stuff. So I'm not sure why it took the OP a while to figure this out. It's literally documented in the manual. Logic's help system is really detailed and while Bitwig's User Guide isn't at the same level and in some instances a bit outdated it still walks you through everything you need to know.