What mode am I borrowing this chord from?

[AivarasBurn]

Hello there,

I've stumbled upon this cool progression that sounds very LOTR/elfish which is basically going from tonic chord to a sharpened 4th chord.

The problem is that I can't figure out from which mode am I borrowing the #4 chord.. For example, if I am in the key of C, the progression is Cmaj - F#maj - Lydian has a #4 in it's scale but that borrowed chord, according to Lydian's chords should be a diminished one.

I realise that it's all about what sounds good, is good, but I would just like to know why it sounds like a chromatic mediant and why does it work?

Thank you!

[shawshawraw]

Care to play more than 2 bars, preferably with a rough melody?

You can use this service to upload: https://vocaroo.com (warning once you upload it's public; don't upload anything serious)

That Gb major is on chromatic root, so it automatically sounds like a IV because it has #11 not 11, which is forced by whatever scale you're in with the C chord. For the same reason, I believe, it's usually spelled Gb not F#, as we barely like double sharp :p (on that #11)

[jancivil]

C major is not Lydian. If we construct a triad on F# "in C major" it would tend to have something relating it to the key rather than be a Lydian mode kind of a deal. So F# A C is functionally vii of V, a secondary dominant with the target G (major chord), the V harmony in C. Lydian does not do that because we are now out of the mode entirely, we have insisted on G as a tonic (whether it's a modulation, ie., we're planning to visit a while, not just a moment, or tonicizing it, ie., a momentary tonic). So the usual things from major which do function bely the mode and present a danger, because of the tension we're conditioned to want to resolve. Not saying no one can get away with it but one has to be cognizant of that whole kind of thing. Another instance is D major with a minor seventh [D F# A C], D7 on C Lydian has that pull to its V; a naive handling of this destroys C Lydian, which has to retain the 'tonic' C to even be that mode so it's just V of V from C major. Quick tip: modes are not in keys.

With no musical example to draw an inference from, who knows to what the F# belongs, from whence to be borrowed. An F# major chord in functional harmony is V of iii but there's nothing here demonstrating such. A tritone move of two major chords in itself could be like Black Sabbath Paranoid, probably not uncommon in metal; in which case there's no particular need to justify or make an argument for it. Common Practice Period harmony does not travel to every kind of music, notions such as borrowed chord or mediant might be a red herring.

[jancivil]

That Gb major is on chromatic root, so it automatically sounds like a IV because it has #11 not 11, which is forced by whatever scale you're in with the C chord. For the same reason, I believe, it's usually spelled Gb not F#, as we barely like double sharp :p (on that #11)

there has to be a reason to call it Gb, and so far no.
it would not sound like a IV at all. It MIGHT sound like a V of iii - vii, idiot -
it might be the same move as Paranoid, we have no idea.

In actual C Lydian we can do an extended harmony to F# {C^7#11} and be rather lush: C (E) G (B) D (F#) , note the P5ths constructions. F# not much of a stretch to C; Gb OTOH...
F# may derive from the as-close-as-a-key-gets to C, G major (or E minor), or it may be the normal 4 of C Lydian.
While Gb derives from a flat key and itself is found on the opposite side of the circle to C. 0 flats to 6 flats vs 0 sharps to 1 sharp.

[shawshawraw]

there has to be a reason to call it Gb, and so far no.
it would not sound like a IV at all. It MIGHT sound like a V of iii, it might be the same move as Paranoid, we have no idea.

May I know why you deem it a V of iii, not a V of something else?

My thinking is - if I consider #IValt5 (to fit notes of C major), the closest diatonic construction would be on VII.

Or maybe was I overthinking, and it doesn't have to be V of iii, in particular? e.g. the Moonlight Sonata (that you mentioned in another thread)

[trewq]

I realise that it's all about what sounds good, is good, but I would just like to know why it sounds like a chromatic mediant and why does it work?

It might also help to Google search these scales:
C Tritone
E Hungarian Major
Bb Hungarian Major

[AivarasBurn]

Thanks a lot for your input guys, really appreciate it!

I've done this demo track ages ago and want to brush it up on it again and get it sorted since I think it has potential.

Sorry that I wasn't that clear from the start - the section I'm on about is around 3:12 where the chord comes in: https://soundcloud.com/user-608207314/cinematic

I just opened a project and luckily enough, I wrote down the chords for this section, starting from 3:00:

i Emin - iii G#min - VI Cmaj - F#maj - VI Cmaj7

I really think that it might just be a C tritone, just like trewq said but correct me if I'm wrong!

[trewq]

Definitely gives a feeling something very strange is going on -

A few chords which satisfy a 6tone symmetrical scale, until the F# maj which makes it a tritone scale with the C maj giving it 3 new notes.

Finally the C maj7 is extending the tritone to a 7 tone scale, and is a Cmaj combined with the Emin.

Is that basically right?

[jancivil]

it would not sound like a IV at all. It MIGHT sound like a V of iii, it might be the same move as Paranoid, we have no idea.

May I know why you deem it a V of iii, not a V of something else?

sorry, if key is C, F# is V/vii if it functions.
donno why I made the mistake

[jancivil]

my mind was tweaked by trying to work the word 'mediant' maybe. mediant is iii

I would also find a lot of resort to synthetic scales bit of a red herring here, but of interest anyway.
I mean we have no idea what the music is, it's just some lyping of text at this point, let's go for the gusto.

there is no indication the F# does V to any harmony on B.

borrowed chords are from harmonic music, there's a reason for attributing to another *key*.
F# functions in B as V; this is a 5-sharp key; it's IV of C#, a 7 sharp key sig; I of F#, a 6-sharp key; all amidst 0 sharps.

but again, things don't have to justify to this paradigm.

[BertKoor]

I mean we have no idea what the music is, it's just some lyping of text at this point,

Well, meanwhile the OP posted a soundcloud link a few posts ago, so....

[jancivil]

Do YOU have a justification for it or just being a schoolmarm out of school


ok, then: it's an abrupt move by a tritone for emotional effect there, there is no need to justify it
it's effective.

[AivarasBurn]

I guess we can look at it in many different ways and get lost in the rabbit hole with the analogy and analysis, but I think sticking to tritone substitution in this case will clear this enough for me haha! Cheers!

[jancivil]

well since you mention bVI - which btw is Ab as pertains to C - Gb is as good as F# although it doesn't mean much unless you're using real woodwinds or brass built on a fundamental from the flat side, in which case you might want to indicate the flat side, ie., for an Eb horn F# is a mutha.

but it's not substantially different than the common metal use of a [parallel] tritone out of nowhere, don' worry abouddit

[shawshawraw]

I just opened a project and luckily enough, I wrote down the chords for this section, starting from 3:00:

i Emin - iii G#min - VI Cmaj - F#maj - VI Cmaj7

Thanks for the music! I love the imagery of this progression

My first impression when I heard it yesterday was, that F# hooks to G#m.

Perhaps we can look at it this way:
G#m = vi
C = Neapolitan
F# = V
C = repeat (I didn't hear Maj7)

I'm not sure I can spell out Em as the first in the sequence. It sounds like a unison on G and a little E when I crank up the volume.

The melody on G#m gives clue on its function - there's a semitone. It's still vague, but cannot be iii. It sounds much more like vi/i than ii/iv. (Think Em as D#7alt - I heard this once on a lighthearted singer songwriter radio.)

But all in all, the melody is super sparse and metering is a little indecisive, so let's focus on the scene