Do the monitors even matter in an untreated room? Debating JBL 305P MkII vs PreSonus Eris 4.5 or 3.5

[chk071]

Monitors are reference monitors, they are not designed to sound good...they are intended to sound accurate and the same every time...

I think that's the mistake I did in the beginning with my current monitors: I expected them to be fun and exciting. Most of the time, I felt kinda bored and underwhelmed. Simply because they don't tend to excite the ear. They sound rather... dry. Un-wet. No make up or double cheese.

Jeez, I love all those esoteric terms we try to define sound with.

Anyway, I think speakers are quite a subjective thing. As someone has mentioned in another thread once here: There is no perfect, totally flat, fit-for-everybody speaker system. It's all personal preference. TBH, I think I'm someone who prefers slightly hi-fi speakers to clinical, dry, flat speakers. I think my JBL speakers have a bit too much bass to be called "flat", but, I like that. They could be a bit more open/stereo though. I sometimes have a bit of a hard time with the stereo field. But, not sure if that isn't also due to the room situation here.

[Passing Bye]

Someone stating that Genelec and Adam have similar sonic signature should testify about how misleading those videos can be, they are valuable in their own merit, but shouldn't be taken more valuable than they actually are. Someone buying speakers for music enjoyment, gaming and casual music making could actually get plenty out of that content, this have enough bass/mid/hi, this sounds balanced and so on, but someone buying mixing tool can't really stop there.

Sorry, maybe this isn't stuff people like to hear, but I'm not here trying to win popularity contest, just using my spare time to help someone to at least avoid making a mistake.

Best thing of course is to learn as much as possible so that before you test speakers in person you know what you're looking for, and narrowed your choice.
What I've said is that those specific models are closer than one would expect given how the rest of the ranges sound, and close enough that the Adam S3X is good value for money.
The quality of speakers in general is high enough now that one ought to be able to get decent mixes on anything from the lowest tier up, the rest is really more about decisions of value for money over the long term. I've found myself wondering whether to just go for the Genelec given that they'll last a very long time. Still undecided. I do wonder whether more brands will release MTM type designs, in which case I suppose it might not be wise to be thinking of a long-term single purchase.

Guess nobody get's my point, you can't really form an opinion using only You Tube as the source, you can't really know based on that recordings how those speakers really sound and stack against each other in real world, you can't go wrong with any of those speakers, they are all wonderful and capable, you can't go wrong even if you get some based purely on recommendations, but that's not my point.

Think people who are interested in buying Adam/EVE and etc, should hear them in person before making any decision or forming opinion, you should hear them in person next to Genelec's and than you will understand why I write this.

Wish you all the best in your quest!

[andymcbain]

so you dont think if one is consistent using commercial monitors that do indeed work well for others that they cannot indeed create work habits and eventually through said consistency end up creating fantastic mixes with those monitors? Monitors are reference monitors, they are not designed to sound good...they are intended to sound accurate and the same every time...imo opinion it is a mistake to even change your monitors if you have some you are happy with (add to yes, replace, no).

My monitors were won in a sales competition at Mars music in 1999, I still use them because I know what to listen to on those...if I go to a store to replace them and listen (and I sold many just that way) how am I gonna gather such info as I have now? I will I know they will be as good as I have now? The only thing I know for sure is the ones I have now are indeed as good as the ones I have now and I am very comfortable with them...I cant imagine anything else mattering tbh.

So how on earth is he making a mistake?...He is not talking about going and getting some toy speakers from an old stereo, he is talking about well known monitors. I think you are the one that is misleading

I think there's an element of personal preference here and it's possible to find certain monitors difficult to work with. I've had a small set of Eve SC203 here from when I had to move to a smaller room years back. Lord knows I've tried to mix on them but I always go back to my Sennheiser HD650, Mixcube and recently my Slate VSX. I've only kept the Eve's because I can throw them in a bag and take them on holiday

Having also used and been unsure about Adams in the past, I'm guessing I just don't really get on with ribbon tweeters. And I would agree that these YouTube Stereophony demos, while potentially a useful A/B comparison, probably shouldn't be the deal breaker. Likewise with frequency graphs. But if you can't audition speakers in person, you gotta do what you gotta do and best of luck

[Passing Bye]

Exactly my brother, spot on!

[Hink]

the room exaggerates and masks frequencies, no doubt about that...but our ears compensate and we adapt...if you keep things exactly the same eventually adapting is a non issue. I agree a room is important and frankly by this time next year my new studio in an extension I am building will be designed to my shape and specs...but that will also take getting use...still one problem here is people make it sound like you cant make quality music without a perfect room, the best monitors...I dont see it that way, I started with two cassette decks, two speakers and two mics...I suspect Bones might feel the same

[Passing Bye]

Don't think anybody here is claiming you can't make great mixes in untreated room with cheap speakers, think we all done it and I'm still doing it right now, but you can make even better mixes in better room with better speakers, again what everyone is saying.

[chagzuki]

Guess nobody get's my point, you can't really form an opinion using only You Tube as the source, you can't really know based on that recordings how those speakers really sound and stack against each other in real world, you can't go wrong with any of those speakers, they are all wonderful and capable, you can't go wrong even if you get some based purely on recommendations, but that's not my point.

You can form an opinion, it's just a greater risk, and much better to listen in person, if possible. But much better to listen to as many recordings as possible, cross reference recordings against tech details to help interpret the listening experience. Then listen in person. Quite likely the conditions in a music shop won't be perfect, so doing the homework will help dial your mind when it comes to the occasion.
If there's a big enough sample size of YouTube recordings then one can extrapolate speaker characteristics from environment/recording equipment to a significant/useful degree. If the sample size is small then it's not much use or likely misleading. The quality of Genelec 8020 comes across rather forcefully in the material that I've seen; the character is consistent across the different recordings.

[Hink]

so you dont think if one is consistent using commercial monitors that do indeed work well for others that they cannot indeed create work habits and eventually through said consistency end up creating fantastic mixes with those monitors? Monitors are reference monitors, they are not designed to sound good...they are intended to sound accurate and the same every time...imo opinion it is a mistake to even change your monitors if you have some you are happy with (add to yes, replace, no).

My monitors were won in a sales competition at Mars music in 1999, I still use them because I know what to listen to on those...if I go to a store to replace them and listen (and I sold many just that way) how am I gonna gather such info as I have now? I will I know they will be as good as I have now? The only thing I know for sure is the ones I have now are indeed as good as the ones I have now and I am very comfortable with them...I cant imagine anything else mattering tbh.

So how on earth is he making a mistake?...He is not talking about going and getting some toy speakers from an old stereo, he is talking about well known monitors. I think you are the one that is misleading

I think there's an element of personal preference here and it's possible to find certain monitors difficult to work with. I've had a small set of Eve SC203 here from when I had to move to a smaller room years back. Lord knows I've tried to mix on them but I always go back to my Sennheiser HD650, Mixcube and recently my Slate VSX. I've only kept the Eve's because I can throw them in a bag and take them on holiday

Having also used and been unsure about Adams in the past, I'm guessing I just don't really get on with ribbon tweeters. And I would agree that these YouTube Stereophony demos, while potentially a useful A/B comparison, probably shouldn't be the deal breaker. Likewise with frequency graphs. But if you can't audition speakers in person, you gotta do what you gotta do and best of luck

I just want to point out that you are not wrong, I also want to point out neither am I...one thing though, when I turn on my monitors I am not guessing anything...other fun facts...I only like passive monitors, I dont want the mass of amps added to my monitors plus I want the ability to choose my amp(s) to grossly over power my monitors (I dont, I just want lower distortion at my listening level), my monitors stay exactly in the same spot (even when I moved), I refuse to lay them on the side.

I completely agree about an element of personal preference, but it might be an interesting discussion on whether one can gain such appreciation in a music store or if it is something that is developed over time. In my case it is surely the latter and really my point, I am comfortable with my monitors, they are inviting to me as is my whole studio, I mix a lot in mono and I am very familiar in this set up...I would not have got that from a music store. (but in fairness working in the store I did have time to try them, but still I won them, not chose)

But I am me and you are you, I started recording when an 8 track was a loop with 4 stereo programs...seriously, my first recording deck of any kind was a radio shack 8 track recorder

You gotta do you and what works, I just want to remove the word cant]/i]

[Hink]

Don't think anybody here is claiming you can't make great mixes in untreated room with cheap speakers, think we all done it and I'm still doing it right now, but you can make even better mixes in better room with better speakers, again what everyone is saying.

until almost 5 years ago my studio was in an apartment, I was Les Nessman...I wanted walls...I got a lovely house, getting better in fact, nice studio...I'm not overwhelmed by the sound improvement.

[chagzuki]

Lord knows I've tried to mix on them but I always go back to my Sennheiser HD650, Mixcube and recently my Slate VSX. I've only kept the Eve's because I can throw them in a bag and take them on holiday

That's interesting, so you find the A/Bing between headphones and (single?) mixcube gives you the best contrast of information? I've been working on HD600s and crap inbuilt iMac/laptop speakers recently, and I'm pretty comfortable on headphones. I guess at some point I became attuned to the pitfalls of mixing on headphones and I don't seem to fall into the traps. I've been wondering about picking up a mixcube as a way to zone in on the crucial information.

[andymcbain]

That's interesting, so you find the A/Bing between headphones and (single?) mixcube gives you the best contrast of information? I've been working on HD600s and crap inbuilt iMac/laptop speakers recently, and I'm pretty comfortable on headphones. I guess at some point I became attuned to the pitfalls of mixing on headphones and I don't seem to fall into the traps. I've been wondering about picking up a mixcube as a way to zone in on the crucial information.

I still have the monitors in the A/B/C switcheroo, I just use them more for a general overview now (and when I need to hear the top end... which they aren't shy about presenting )

I was put onto the Mixcube by Mike Senior's book "mixing secrets for the home studio" - which probably covers most of the discussions in this thread, actually I started with a single driver bluetooth speaker but upgraded to an active Avantone Mixcube. Really couldn't be without that thing now and do pretty much all my general balancing and vocal micro editing with it. I can just "see" into the mix (albeit only the centre channel) much more easily and get faster results than I do with the monitors. Maybe it's my room holding me back, or the aforementioned design of the Eve 203s... but I'm not in a massive hurry to audition any other speakers when I can get most things done with the cube and my two sets of headphones - HD650 to hear fine detail and the Slate VSX for the low end + room emulations.

re: mixing on just the headphones and the cube, Mike Senior does actually recommend this though I've never tried it. Not sure how I'd feel about doing the stereo field stuff in just headphones without some kinda stereo speaker setup as a sanity check

[Passing Bye]

Don't think anybody here is claiming you can't make great mixes in untreated room with cheap speakers, think we all done it and I'm still doing it right now, but you can make even better mixes in better room with better speakers, again what everyone is saying.

until almost 5 years ago my studio was in an apartment, I was Les Nessman...I wanted walls...I got a lovely house, getting better in fact, nice studio...I'm not overwhelmed by the sound improvement.

I'm happy with my home space too, but to be honest I'm not pushing myself or care that much about production, can even say I hate the whole thing, but that's me right now.

There was a time when I pushed myself and improved every day, back than 5% of improvement in any way was huge, back than 0.1% seemed like 5% sometimes, just pushing myself to do better all the time, give 99% of me and woke up next day and push myself to do better than that, was striving for greatness, now I'm settled with mediocrity, it's fun and music isn't my calling, it's my fun hobby, I don't need better anything, I can barely put in good use what I have now.

Ploki is probably amazing engineer, Recursive One is actually amazing producer and he is kind of guy that is pushing himself all the time and will never settle until he's at least on the level of the people he looks up to, I know from where they are coming from mentally and they can appreciate even 5% of improvement in their chain, I can't, it makes no difference to me, but it makes difference, there's much better everything than mine, this room isn't destined for greatness, but some rooms are and nobody can say investing so much money in them was mistake, some of the best records we enjoy are made in some of those rooms, people with passion should strive for greatness, I wouldn't be in this room if I were on that path.

Not every room is destined to be great studio space, one can invest tons of money trying to fix it, but that room isn't destined for greatness or in the end of the day, one isn't either, that's more than fine, embrace the reality and have fun, truth will set you free I guess.

[Hink]

I guess it all depends on expectations, I am sorry you find your experience to be mediocre...mine has not been so but honestly I would consider it a complete failure if I let my room, my gear or my mixing skills define my value (actually prefer the term growth) as a musician...I have said it many times, I write to play, I am a musician, not a producer and when I am finished with a piece it matters not who likes it or not as it has already enriched my life in the ways I have expected it to. On Sunday I will celebrate 50 years from the day I got my very first guitar, it is not my hobby, it's not my profession, it's my greatest passion. As long as I got a song I'll find a way to make it, that's what it is about for me...my happiness is not predicated on the expectations and preferences of others

[Passing Bye]

You can form an opinion, it's just a greater risk, and much better to listen in person, if possible. But much better to listen to as many recordings as possible, cross reference recordings against tech details to help interpret the listening experience. Then listen in person. Quite likely the conditions in a music shop won't be perfect, so doing the homework will help dial your mind when it comes to the occasion.
If there's a big enough sample size of YouTube recordings then one can extrapolate speaker characteristics from environment/recording equipment to a significant/useful degree. If the sample size is small then it's not much use or likely misleading. The quality of Genelec 8020 comes across rather forcefully in the material that I've seen; the character is consistent across the different recordings.

One should do everything he can, only mistake one can make is that he end up having remorse about his decisions, realizing they weren't as much informed as they should be.

You really can't make mistake buying any established brand, but you can make mistake differentiating between them based on limited info, those mistakes won't break or make your music, but they will influence development of your own taste and preference.

You might end up not appreciating ribbons, happens to a lot of people, they got into them because someone else decided it's the way to go and after few years they get speakers they actually appreciate, it's really one of those things everyone should decide for themselves, what kind of signature he can appreciate and which doesn't, it will make your life so much easier and happier, your budget too.

[Passing Bye]

I guess it all depends on expectations, I am sorry you find your experience to be mediocre...mine has not been so but honestly I would consider it a complete failure if I let my room, my gear or my mixing skills define my value (actually prefer the term growth) as a musician...I have said it many times, I write to play, I am a musician, not a producer and when I am finished with a piece it matters not who likes it or not as it has already enriched my life in the ways I have expected it to. On Sunday I will celebrate 50 years from the day I got my very first guitar, it is not my hobby, it's not my profession, it's my greatest passion. As long as I got a song I'll find a way to make it, that's what it is about for me...my happiness is not predicated on the expectations and preferences of others

Same brother, I'm happy with myself and what I achieved, my results are maybe now mediocre because I don't really care about impressing anyone except me, but guess my point was there are people who are striving for more and who can appreciate stuff I can't and won't, better speakers, rooms, AD/DA converters and you name it, they love it, it makes difference and perfect sense for them, I have really nothing valuable to offer them, I settled with my thing, they would never settle with that, they aren't wrong, neither am I, whatever makes one happy.