FabFilter Pro-R

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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KVRAF
9070 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:57 am

That's one of the biggest strengths of the Pro-R reverb. It's extremely easy to give various instruments "just a touch of natural space" in a mix with it. It's one of my go-to reverbs for this purpose alone (the other being Phoenix Verb, but that one doesn't have a Mac M1 native version out yet and possibly never will :( ).

Pro-R is not as good in doing huge obvious reverbs as it can sometimes be too dense.. and it's difficult to get it to sizzle in an artifical but cool manner (like you can with some other reverbs). Basically it's bad at being "bad in a good way".
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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KVRAF
9070 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:48 am

As I've been using Pro-R a lot this year, here are the presets I've done so far. I just quickly volume matched them so that you should be able to scroll through them easily either as inserts or as sends.

My personal default preset is the "Natural Ambience for Mix bM.ffp". This is where I start every time when needing a subtle mixing/ambience type thing that I give to most of my tracks. It's a good starting point as you can easily make it longer or shorter with the Decay knob and quickly change it's character or stereo width. No matter what you do, it'll stay quite neutral and "easy to mix".
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"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

KVRer
5 posts since 12 Jul, 2021

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:31 am

TBH I find the default settings with a few tweaks on the Valhalla stuff to be the most useful. Every time I shuffle through their presets to see if there's anything better I just end up returning to the plain vanilla default.

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

4668 posts since 25 Dec, 2004

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:57 pm

TBH Pete, i that's the second time you've attempted a personal preference for Valhalla hijack and it's not wanted here.
Please take it to some other general reverb discussion. This thread is centred on the reverb Pro-R, hence the name "FabFilter Pro-R".

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

4668 posts since 25 Dec, 2004

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:00 pm

Thanks for the presets bmanic. I'm gonna pick up Pro-R this week and i've been making heaps myself already with the demo. I'll give your patches a bash later today, thanks heaps for sharing!

KVRian
1085 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:31 am

With Pro-R and short to medium length reverbs I really don't like the very slight phasyness / comb filtering that the reverb adds, which is most clear with wet/dry balance at around 50%. Most people won't use values as high as that, but it's still there and once I heard it I can't unhear it...

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

4668 posts since 25 Dec, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:09 am

on any particular source?

i just bought it, friggon love it.
already though, i'm using Pro-R with fairly extreme eq envelopes in most cases, far more than i would with other verbs that have advanced enough filtering. I don't look at it as a 'reverb'... kinda, not sure how to put it. just tucking it into pockets here and there.

KVRian
1085 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:44 am

sqigls wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:09 am
on any particular source?
Easiest to hear on something like a straight up sawtooth or other synthetic sound. Set the mix to 50%, then go all the way to 100% and 0%. You'll notice that both 0% and 100% are fuller sounds, with 50% having a thinness and phasyness to it.

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KVRAF
9070 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 am

Huh? I just tried with a basic saw tooth and can get both phasyness and non-phasyness going. It seems to be completely dependent on the pre-delay, size, character and distance settings. Also, the equalizers are of course minimum-phase so any heavy duty equalizing will be causing additional phase related changes.

As with _any_ delay based thing, it's completely depending on how you manipulate it. Classic reverbs deal with this with all kinds of modulation of the allpasses and the delay times.

Pro-R can be extremely dense and "clear" (aka Realistic) which means it can cause similar phase issues as a real room would. Actually, the very first alpha version of Pro-R was so incredibly dense that it was almost unusable for many contemporary reverb duties. They eventually made it less dense but it can still be that if you set small room sizes.

If you want behavior similar to a traditional vintage reverb unit you need to set larger room sizes.. and if you still want short decays, use the decay knob and set it to 50%.. then use multiple decay shelves (those blue "eq" like nodes) and set them to further lower the decay amount. This way you can get pretty short room decays at larger room settings, meaning they are less dense and thus cause less phasyness/comb filtering.

Having said that, yes, Pro-R is not ideal for some sounds. It's got more in common with other "room simulator" reverbs, like Phoenix Verb, Quantec Yardstick (this one can be extremely problematic/phasey on some sources! Yet is a classic) or impulse responses for real rooms.

Probably the most important control is the Pre-Delay. It is extremely sensitive due to the way it interacts with the Distance and Size knobs and due to the overall density of the reverberation from Pro-R. A simple 0.1ms change in pre-delay, especially at short values, usually has a much more dramatic effect in Pro-R than most other reverb plugins.

EDIT: Also, do not forget to compensate with output volume. A 50/50 dry/wet mix will cause a bit of loss to overall loudness. This is something I did comment on during beta but Fabfilter didn't think it was an issue. I suspect whatever formula they have for that dry/wet mix knob is not exactly standard. They usually tweak the knob responses to feel "natural" (in their own opinion and aesthetics). So make sure you are actually comparing like for like, volume wise. A few tenths of a dB volume difference can make a huge impact. For instance Valhalla plugins have an extremely aggressive dry/wet curve with a lot of volume compensation.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

KVRian
1085 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:27 am

bmanic wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:20 am
Huh? I just tried with a basic saw tooth and can get both phasyness and non-phasyness going. It seems to be completely dependent on the pre-delay, size, character and distance settings. Also, the equalizers are of course minimum-phase so any heavy duty equalizing will be causing additional phase related changes.

As with _any_ delay based thing, it's completely depending on how you manipulate it. Classic reverbs deal with this with all kinds of modulation of the allpasses and the delay times.

Pro-R can be extremely dense and "clear" (aka Realistic) which means it can cause similar phase issues as a real room would. Actually, the very first alpha version of Pro-R was so incredibly dense that it was almost unusable for many contemporary reverb duties. They eventually made it less dense but it can still be that if you set small room sizes.

If you want behavior similar to a traditional vintage reverb unit you need to set larger room sizes.. and if you still want short decays, use the decay knob and set it to 50%.. then use multiple decay shelves (those blue "eq" like nodes) and set them to further lower the decay amount. This way you can get pretty short room decays at larger room settings, meaning they are less dense and thus cause less phasyness/comb filtering.

Having said that, yes, Pro-R is not ideal for some sounds. It's got more in common with other "room simulator" reverbs, like Phoenix Verb, Quantec Yardstick (this one can be extremely problematic/phasey on some sources! Yet is a classic) or impulse responses for real rooms.

Probably the most important control is the Pre-Delay. It is extremely sensitive due to the way it interacts with the Distance and Size knobs and due to the overall density of the reverberation from Pro-R. A simple 0.1ms change in pre-delay, especially at short values, usually has a much more dramatic effect in Pro-R than most other reverb plugins.

EDIT: Also, do not forget to compensate with output volume. A 50/50 dry/wet mix will cause a bit of loss to overall loudness. This is something I did comment on during beta but Fabfilter didn't think it was an issue. I suspect whatever formula they have for that dry/wet mix knob is not exactly standard. They usually tweak the knob responses to feel "natural" (in their own opinion and aesthetics). So make sure you are actually comparing like for like, volume wise. A few tenths of a dB volume difference can make a huge impact. For instance Valhalla plugins have an extremely aggressive dry/wet curve with a lot of volume compensation.
Didn't mean to imply that you couldn't get a non-phasey sound out of Pro-R. As you said, it does some things really well, others less so. I wish there was more control on early reflections within the effect, maybe in v2.

Still looking for the killer reverb that does shorter reverbs super well. Someone should do an unnatural, less "realistic" small/medium room simulator that would sound really clean. I don't really want the boxyness of realistic small rooms. Sparkverb gets closest IMO...

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KVRAF
4420 posts since 8 Jul, 2009

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:38 pm

Liero wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:27 am
[snip...]Still looking for the killer reverb that does shorter reverbs super well. Someone should do an unnatural, less "realistic" small/medium room simulator that would sound really clean. I don't really want the boxyness of realistic small rooms. Sparkverb gets closest IMO...
Have you tried IK Sunset Sound Studio? IMO it excels at small room ambiances - not just because it was created with IRs from Sunset but because it actually does the best job of nice sounding small spaces than I've ever heard and I have most of the digital reverbs out there.

KVRAF
4081 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:12 am

Liero wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:27 am


Still looking for the killer reverb that does shorter reverbs super well. Someone should do an unnatural, less "realistic" small/medium room simulator that would sound really clean. I don't really want the boxyness of realistic small rooms. Sparkverb gets closest IMO...
Vallhalla Room, Uhbik-A, a few D16 spacerek settings

Try Voxengo Spatifier - it's not a reverb but it's probably something that does an ambience-to-reverb thing despite being a "stereoizer"
Image

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KVRAF
9070 posts since 3 Feb, 2003 from Finland, Espoo

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:32 am

Liero wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:27 am
Still looking for the killer reverb that does shorter reverbs super well. Someone should do an unnatural, less "realistic" small/medium room simulator that would sound really clean. I don't really want the boxyness of realistic small rooms. Sparkverb gets closest IMO...
For really tight and small ambience/space, that is extremely transparent (aka not sounding like a "reverb"), I find that the UVI Plate is one of the best. Unfortunately, to get that transparency, you need to run it on it's highest quality setting and experiment _a lot_ with positioning of the virtual microphones and the plate parameters.. meaning it eats a metric ton of CPU power and also takes quite a bit of time to setup.

However, once you've done this and dealt with the CPU requirements, it's one of the absolute best in terms of not sounding like a reverb while still giving "space" and ambience to any track.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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KVRian
719 posts since 14 Jul, 2018

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:57 pm

on the "transparent" side - "(aka not sounding like a "reverb")" i find the
flux IRCAM Verb quite good...

https://www.flux.audio/project/ircam-verb-v3/
Last edited by muki on Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRian
1085 posts since 6 Mar, 2004

Post Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:02 am

bmanic wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:32 am
Liero wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:27 am
Still looking for the killer reverb that does shorter reverbs super well. Someone should do an unnatural, less "realistic" small/medium room simulator that would sound really clean. I don't really want the boxyness of realistic small rooms. Sparkverb gets closest IMO...
For really tight and small ambience/space, that is extremely transparent (aka not sounding like a "reverb"), I find that the UVI Plate is one of the best. Unfortunately, to get that transparency, you need to run it on it's highest quality setting and experiment _a lot_ with positioning of the virtual microphones and the plate parameters.. meaning it eats a metric ton of CPU power and also takes quite a bit of time to setup.

However, once you've done this and dealt with the CPU requirements, it's one of the absolute best in terms of not sounding like a reverb while still giving "space" and ambience to any track.
Good call and I completely agree. It's precisely the CPU requirements that kind of put me off from it, though, as I can't run many instances at all at max settings. It's also one of the curious reverbs where the CPU "mode" actually has a really drastic effect on sound. Wish they made a hardware unit of that one.

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