I sampled a piano. Which software editor/tool for automatic editing? Free/paid?

Sampler and Sampling discussion (techniques, tips and tricks, etc.)
KVRer

Topic Starter

15 posts since 29 Nov, 2020 from HellSinKey, Finland

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:39 pm

enroe, thanks for the practical advices and links! Sounds wise, I'll definitely look into the subject.

KVRer

Topic Starter

15 posts since 29 Nov, 2020 from HellSinKey, Finland

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:46 pm

ghettosynth, can you recommend few free pianos that sounds good/excellent to you?

AnX
KVRAF
9619 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:02 pm


KVRAF
13009 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Post Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:40 pm

Start with ANX's linked video and go from there. I use a number of different pianos but I've never spent a lot of money for any of them. If you're at the place where you're trying to make one from samples of an acoustic piano and you've never done that before, well, most free instruments will sound more polished.

I've used several from this list from time to time.

https://freedigitalinstruments.wordpres ... keyboards/

Again, I don't want to discourage you. Your samples may have an interesting character. One of my favorite pianos is the pripyat piano and part of the character is that the various sampled pianos that make up the library are decaying specimens from the exclusion zone around Chernobyl. You can dial in the amount of decay that you want in the instrument.

https://strixinstruments.com/pripyat-pianos/

So download one or two that help you to practice, and then keep exploring if you aren't satisfied with those. Always keep in mind though that really good libraries can be had for very low amounts of money these days. I like the Waves Grand Rhapsody piano quite a bit and it's currently $35.

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10099 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am

enroe wrote:
Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:49 pm
If I want to construct a sample set, which format should I
use then? Answer: The best is the format that:

  • is relatively widespread and known.
  • for which there are most samplers who "understand" the format.
  • is easy to edit (e.g. with any text editor).
  • is not hindered by proprietary restrictions.


----> And this format is - Tataaaang : SFZ

On the page here you can find all information about SFZ and
many examples of how it can be used. :tu:

These samplers understand SFZ: Click here .
The TX16W, for example, also understands sfz, in my opinion the
best are "sforzando" and "sfizz". There are also some conversion
tools here.

----> If you're bothering to build a new sample set, why not use the
truly universal SFZ format? In my opinion, that would make the most
sense.
Yes, SFZ is understood by many samplers. However, they basically extract the region and sample map information. That's just the beginning of a sample based instrument. Things like envelopes, filters, modulations, etc. have to be defined FOR EACH SAMPLER. I am not that knowledgeable about SFZ, but I think it doesn't contain these. And if it doesn't, then a sample pack based in SFZ is just half of the job. Is there even any graphical based SFZ editor that allows you to, at least, create sample maps? I'd say the best thing for that task (and is far from perfect in this domain) is Awave Studio.
Fernando (FMR)

KVRAF
1537 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:48 am

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am
Yes, SFZ is understood by many samplers. However, they basically extract the region and sample map information.
No, SFZ is a complete sample format with pretty much all the usual
functions a complex multisample needs. :wink:

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am
That's just the beginning of a sample based instrument. Things like envelopes, filters, modulations, etc. have to be defined FOR EACH SAMPLER. I am not that knowledgeable about SFZ, but I think it doesn't contain these. And if it doesn't, then a sample pack based in SFZ is just half of the job.
No, no, you can define and parameterize envelopes for AMPS, LFO,
pitch etc. separately on each hierarchy level - and thus also
automate them. SFZ is pretty complete, and with the sfizz-sampler
the format is even carefully expanded (for the sake of compatibility). :)

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am
Is there even any graphical based SFZ editor that allows you to, at least, create sample maps? I'd say the best thing for that task (and is far from perfect in this domain) is Awave Studio.
The nice thing is: You can really use any text editor to create
the sample definitions. Since the format is structured very logically,
it works perfectly. :tu:

I don't work with a graphical editor - that's why I don't even know
if there is one. I think Björn Bojahr has one of those - but you
have to research it. :?:
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

KVRist
31 posts since 5 Mar, 2021

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:51 am

enroe wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:48 am
fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am
Yes, SFZ is understood by many samplers. However, they basically extract the region and sample map information.
No, SFZ is a complete sample format with pretty much all the usual
functions a complex multisample needs. :wink:
Well, there's some truth to that.
A lot of the marginally SFZ compatible sample players really do just that - extract just a few things, like the key map data, and ignore everything else. That's one of the weaknesses of the SFZ format - it is supported so inconsistently.

That said, the SFZ capabilities, when using a (nearly) fully compatible player like Sfizz, are awesome. The feature set is more complete than almost any other sampler.

Coding by text is not for everyone, but even as a non-coder, I haven't found it very hard to learn, and it's quite pleasing to cobble together instruments. For some tasks it can be very quick too. It's free and fun - give it a go!

Bjoerns Sample Mapper is great. It looks ancient, but gets updated and works perfectly on my current Mac OS. You drag in a folder of samples (or several, for layers and groups), and it creates a text SFZ file that's playable and ready to go. Of course, in almost every instance you'll keep editing from there, adding all your extra stuff, like filters and LFOs.

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10099 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am

MTorn wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:51 am
enroe wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:48 am
fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:25 am
Yes, SFZ is understood by many samplers. However, they basically extract the region and sample map information.
No, SFZ is a complete sample format with pretty much all the usual
functions a complex multisample needs. :wink:
Well, there's some truth to that.
A lot of the marginally SFZ compatible sample players really do just that - extract just a few things, like the key map data, and ignore everything else. That's one of the weaknesses of the SFZ format - it is supported so inconsistently.
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions. And that's understandable, as each sampler has its own engine, which varies a lot. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to include all the variations. And a sampler may have some possibilities another doesn't, but has others instead.

That's why reading the sample regions is what basically is supported, because that's the only thing guaranteed to be compatible among basically all of them.

I don't know Sfizz, but I am curious, I will download and install it, although my expectations are really low. The only free sampler I saw in the last years that's free and worth something is TX16Wx. All the rest is basically trash.
Fernando (FMR)

KVRist
31 posts since 5 Mar, 2021

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:50 am

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions. And that's understandable, as each sampler has its own engine, which varies a lot. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to include all the variations. And a sampler may have some possibilities another doesn't, but has others instead.

That's why reading the sample regions is what basically is supported, because that's the only thing guaranteed to be compatible among basically all of them.

I don't know Sfizz, but I am curious, I will download and install it, although my expectations are really low. The only free sampler I saw in the last years that's free and worth something is TX16Wx. All the rest is basically trash.
Sfizz, as well as the older Sforzando, certainly isn't trash. But temper your expectations - it doesn't look anything like normal sampler plugins. It's basically just a patch loader, so it's a bit bewildering at first. Everything else happens under the surface, in the text of the SFZ files.

I tried several times to like TX16W, but I never could get along with it. It crashed a lot, and the UI is too far removed from the normal conventions (at least compared to using a Mac), making it feel clunky and alienating.

KVRAF
1537 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Post Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:50 pm

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions. And that's understandable, as each sampler has its own engine, which varies a lot. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to include all the variations. And a sampler may have some possibilities another doesn't, but has others instead.

That's why reading the sample regions is what basically is supported, because that's the only thing guaranteed to be compatible among basically all of them.

All the rest is basically trash.
Ooops, here you reveal that you have not dealt with SFZ. :roll:

There's a huge list of samplers, which understand the sfz-format,
and all understand at least sfz version 1 (which already is much more
than just regions: All envelopes with amp, LFO and pitch are already
included in sfz-1! ) Click here .

Also the old rgcaudio-sfz sampler understands much more than
sfz-1 and is quite excellent. The top best are certainly sforzando
(sfz-2) and sfizz (sfz-2). But depending on the use case, other
samplers on the list are fantastic too.

No other format has so many samplers, no other format is so open
and flexible. Try it out - you'll be amazed. :hyper:
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10099 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:06 am

enroe wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:50 pm
fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions. And that's understandable, as each sampler has its own engine, which varies a lot. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to include all the variations. And a sampler may have some possibilities another doesn't, but has others instead.

That's why reading the sample regions is what basically is supported, because that's the only thing guaranteed to be compatible among basically all of them.

All the rest is basically trash.
Ooops, here you reveal that you have not dealt with SFZ. :roll:

There's a huge list of samplers, which understand the sfz-format,
and all understand at least sfz version 1 (which already is much more
than just regions: All envelopes with amp, LFO and pitch are already
included in sfz-1! ) Click here .
Ooops... You don't know what you're talking about. You keep posting lists, but I WORK with samplers (the ones that matter, because many in that list aren't even worh the time spent opening them). As a mater of fact, I created the Hollowsun library for TAL Sampler (one of those that's in your list), And I started exactly by converting the Akai mappings into SFZ, using Awave. And I've been teaching TX-16Wx, and I own Falcon, HALion, Kontakt, etc.

Therefore, I KNOW what they "recognize" out of SFZ, and what they don't. Apparently, you are the one talking about something you don't know. SFZ is basically a "sample mapper" for those samplers. And it's OK, because mapping samples is a tedious job, and having a format that may be used across several samplers is good. But THAT'S IT. Do you really think that you could come with something worth using out of Falcon with "just" an SFZ map? You don't know Falcon, do you? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Fernando (FMR)

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10099 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:20 am

MTorn wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:50 am
fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions. And that's understandable, as each sampler has its own engine, which varies a lot. It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to include all the variations. And a sampler may have some possibilities another doesn't, but has others instead.

That's why reading the sample regions is what basically is supported, because that's the only thing guaranteed to be compatible among basically all of them.

I don't know Sfizz, but I am curious, I will download and install it, although my expectations are really low. The only free sampler I saw in the last years that's free and worth something is TX16Wx. All the rest is basically trash.
Sfizz, as well as the older Sforzando, certainly isn't trash. But temper your expectations - it doesn't look anything like normal sampler plugins. It's basically just a patch loader, so it's a bit bewildering at first. Everything else happens under the surface, in the text of the SFZ files.
I know Sforzando, as I know Aria. They are mere "sample players", not samplers. You can't program an instrument on them.
MTorn wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:50 am
I tried several times to like TX16W, but I never could get along with it. It crashed a lot, and the UI is too far removed from the normal conventions (at least compared to using a Mac), making it feel clunky and alienating.
TX16Wx is a little cumbersome, but certainly doesn't crash a lot, Maybe it's a Mac problem. MacOS is prone to problems (I know, I've been a Mac user for more than 30 years - but users usually blame the software). Get a PC, and you'll be OK (and save A LOT).
Fernando (FMR)

KVRist
31 posts since 5 Mar, 2021

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am

fmr wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:20 am
I know Sforzando, as I know Aria. They are mere "sample players", not samplers. You can't program an instrument on them.
That’s a new version on the nitpicking about the definition of a”sampler”. Normally the complaint is “it doesn’t record samples, so don’t call it a sampler”.
But as we know, almost none of them record samples, nor do they need to.

The fact that they need a text editor to program patches might put them into a special subcategory, but they are still part of the family. You said yourself that you used external software to make TAL Sampler key maps, this is not all that different.
fmr wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:20 am

TX16Wx is a little cumbersome, but certainly doesn't crash a lot, Maybe it's a Mac problem. MacOS is prone to problems (I know, I've been a Mac user for more than 30 years - but users usually blame the software). Get a PC, and you'll be OK (and save A LOT).
I too have used Macs for 30 years, exclusively. To start from scratch relearning everything is a bit like asking me to become left handed. Just to save a couple hundred bucks.
As for crashing, I don’t think I switching to a new OS will make crashing go away.

Aren’t you being needlessly combative about this?

User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
10099 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:28 am

MTorn wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:04 am
fmr wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:20 am
I know Sforzando, as I know Aria. They are mere "sample players", not samplers. You can't program an instrument on them.
That’s a new version on the nitpicking about the definition of a”sampler”. Normally the complaint is “it doesn’t record samples, so don’t call it a sampler”.
But as we know, almost none of them record samples, nor do they need to.

The fact that they need a text editor to program patches might put them into a special subcategory, but they are still part of the family. You said yourself that you used external software to make TAL Sampler key maps, this is not all that different.
I did that because I already had the keymaps. Not that I was forced to. TAL Sampler allows you to create your keymaps (as does any DECENT sampler). As a matter of fact, sometimes I changed the keymaps after importing them. This is the key word here: ADAPT. Each sampler has its own peculiarities, which demand you to sometimes adapt the sample maps (and pretty much everything).

Using a text editor to program patches? Really? And how do you check the values for filter, envelopes, LFOs, etc? You type, load, play, go back, type again, load again, play again? :lol:

And are you the one that say it would be useless to change computer to save a couple hundred dollars. :dog:
Fernando (FMR)

KVRAF
1537 posts since 19 Mar, 2008 from germany

Post Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:11 am

fmr wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:31 am
All the samplers I worked with that "supported" SFZ only read the sample regions.

The only free sampler I saw in the last years that's free and worth something is
TX16Wx. All the rest is basically trash.
Well, with this you are impressively demonstrating that you have
no idea - and that you are still verbose here. :?
For me this is a huge contradiction - and that puts you on my
ignore list. :wink:
free mp3s + info: andy-enroe.de songs + weird stuff: enroe.de

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