Nothing approaches IK Tape BUT it hates my computer! Alternatives? SOLVED!

[Ploki]

I still think u-he satin is the most authentic tape plugin bar none.

I dont see how snapshotting a nonlinear dynamic system like tape could possibly work Authentically, and i dont use 100% wet IR based stuff on master - ever.

[jens]

maybe i am overthinking things lol... but when i say 'imaging' it is akin to photography... not in anything visual mind you but as in "snapshots in time" which is a phrase that has been attached to photography since it's inception. the same thing happens when sampling hardware in this case or the components of that hardware... the recorded sample taken is only a 'slice in time' (fixed) but it is as realistic as it gets at least for the present without using the actual hardware. pure algorithmic code cannot do this. code is only a 'facsimile of the same' or 'best guess'... the sample or 'image' IS the real thing just not physically at least in my opinion and i prefer using images no matter how taxing it is on the system. just one cannot think they should be able to use as much imaging as they do pure code based. concessions have to be made... at least for now.

cheers

That would be Volterra kernelling then... I do not remember having read anything that would give me the impression that this is what they use for this and tbh I highly doubt it. It does not at all behave similar to the Acustica Audio stuff... and it would also requires a lot of experience and expertise in that field - IKs main field of expertise is physical modelling. As fas as I know they only use IRs for non-linear processes. Do you perhaps cofuse it with the Sunset reverb? That one is indeed using a mixture of physical modelling and IRs.

[jens]

I still think u-he satin is the most authentic tape plugin bar none.

I dont see how snapshotting a nonlinear dynamic system like tape could possibly work Authentically, and i dont use 100% wet IR based stuff on master - ever.

I think you are the first person that I remember claiming Satin was more authentic than the IK ones, which are typically said to be the currrent pinnacle of tape emulation.

[Ploki]

maybe i am overthinking things lol... but when i say 'imaging' it is akin to photography... not in anything visual mind you but as in "snapshots in time" which is a phrase that has been attached to photography since it's inception. the same thing happens when sampling hardware in this case or the components of that hardware... the recorded sample taken is only a 'slice in time' (fixed) but it is as realistic as it gets at least for the present without using the actual hardware. pure algorithmic code cannot do this. code is only a 'facsimile of the same' or 'best guess'... the sample or 'image' IS the real thing just not physically at least in my opinion and i prefer using images no matter how taxing it is on the system. just one cannot think they should be able to use as much imaging as they do pure code based. concessions have to be made... at least for now.

cheers

That would be Volterra kernelling then... I do not remember having read anything that would give me the impression that this is what they use for this and tbh I highly doubt it. It does not at all behave similar to the Acustica Audio stuff... and it would also requires a lot of experience and expertise in that field - IKs main field of expertise is physical modelling. As fas as I know they only use IRs for non-linear processes. Do you perhaps cofuse it with the Sunset reverb? That one is indeed using a mixture of physical modelling and IRs.

You sure abour IR only for NON-linear process?
It’s the most difficult aspect to implement with IR and that’s where acoustica is usually weak.
You need to have an immense dynamic IR library or combine it with algorithms for non-linear processing.

Makes much more sense to use IR for general frequency response and model the non-linearities. (What Voxengo CRTIV TapeBus does)

Re: satin

As far as i had experience with decks (i had one and used a couple), it behaves like a well calibrated deck in my opinion.

IK i demoed - was cool but it didn’t floor me.
And before IK, taupe was supposed to be the best tape ever. and i’ve said it before - an IR of a moving tape just doesn’t make sense.

[jens]

No, it was a typo/brainfuck obviously... I meant non-nonlinear processes...

What sort of experience with real tape-machines do you have, if I may ask?

I am 48 and tbh I have none, basically (6 track casette-recorder aside - I mean, I later on had a Tascam 34b but barely ever used it, because I was too effing lazy for it - then I sold it when I moved abroad and both money&space was tight...) - when it came to real multitrack-recordings, the digital revolution had already arrived in the form of ADAT when I arrived at that point of my non-career...
so all I can draw from in regards to judging the quality of tape-machines is to go by what I know from hundreds of recordings I've been listening to and my experience with analog gear in general (which I have tons of, because my GAS doesn't stop with software at all ) - how "organic" and "real" does it feel? Then I evaluate these experiences in combination with what I read&hear from those who are very experienced in regards to actual tape-machines. And all that to me suggests that the IK ones are head&shoulder above anything else.

[Ploki]

I had a cheapshit r2r and worked in a studio with a 24-tracker a couple of times (and recorded to it), friend of mine had a decent 2-track TEAC R2R and i’ve pulled some stuff through some Studer 2-track 1/2” thing.

I still have a decent 3-head stereo cassette deck in the studio (with a handful of blanks - type i, ii and even iv-metal tapes), but r2r proved to be just too much of a money hole and constant service to deal with.

U-he satin to me is like pianoteq vs sampled pianos - it might not be 1:1 sonically but if FEELS like a deck.

When i tried it against a studer, people couldn’t tell it apart after i matched the EQ curve that studer imposed over material.

when it comes to tapes i feel like people are more attached to the idea - expectation of what a tape sounds like rather than how it actually sounds in practice

That’s why i dont think IR does tape justice. It’s way too alive and unpredictable to simply snapshot

[MadDogE134]

well i don't program anymore but i suppose you could use algo to cause variance or non-linearity of the sample or image otherwise it would be just static and most are far from static... certainly not IK Tape. seriously i don't know what they are doing with IK Tape just that i thought i heard something about them using imaging. there are many developers using images now so i wouldn't doubt it.

cheers

[briefcasemanx]

I don't think anyone is saying that IK Tape is using static IRs to model non-linear behavior, if it's some sort of sampling (and I'm guessing it is given how good it sounds compared to other algorithmic plugins), then it's definitely some form of dynamic sampling/IR/volterra kernels/etc

[Ploki]

There are limits to what volterra can do, and IR’s can only do filtering.
Since IK wont speak, we can only assume what it does.

If they did nail volterra, i’m not sure why they wouldn’t apply it to Amplitube cabinets as speakers with less nonlinearities and variables are a better candidate than tape for it.

[briefcasemanx]

What are the limits? Why are speakers better than tape for Volterra? And the new Amplitude apparently sounds really good.

[Ploki]

Sorry i'm barely grasping dynamic convo so I can't really make a sensible explanation, i have this bookmarked which should answer some questions
https://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2004/jul ... tent2.html
but something about low-order nonlinear systems vs high order nonlinear system

re: amplitube
Tried the mesa amplitube, and it sounded nothing like my actual Mesa. (ML Sound Lab and Mercurial are imo better Mesas). Didn't bother with AT5 so i can't comment on that, but they use static IRs (a lot of them to affect mic position - but still static), while a speaker-poweramp system is not a linear system at all.
Speakers distort and compress, IRs don't, even if there's 600 of them per cabinet

[jens]

That’s why i dont think IR does tape justice. It’s way too alive and unpredictable to simply snapshot

I don't know why you keep harping on about IRs? What does it have to do with this thread?

[jens]

I don't think anyone is saying that IK Tape is using static IRs to model non-linear behavior, if it's some sort of sampling (and I'm guessing it is given how good it sounds compared to other algorithmic plugins), then it's definitely some form of dynamic sampling/IR/volterra kernels/etc

Again: I never read or heard anything that would in any way hint at the IK tapes having anything to do with IRs or Volterrra kernelling AT ALL. Up to this point it seems just like an unfounded rumour to me and I would suggest to either come up with evidence or stop mentioning it altogether. This sort of continued rumour spreading is just really really really crap.

Please let's stick with the facts! Who likes facts here?

[SLiC]

Satin is a serious alternative, you can tweak just about any tape sound you want from it.
Softube Tape is also very good and only £40

https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/ ... fab6b6401c

[Ploki]

Again: I never read or heard anything that would in any way hint at the IK tapes having anything to do with IRs or Volterrra kernelling AT ALL. Up to this point it seems just like an unfounded rumour to me and I would suggest to either come up with evidence or stop mentioning it altogether. This sort of continued rumour spreading is just really really really crap.

Please let's stick with the facts! Who likes facts here?

I don't know why you keep harping on about IRs? What does it have to do with this thread?

https://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/trtapemac/

This model now works in symbiosis with a powerful dynamic convolution engine

Using a careful mix of convolution and physical modeling