[video] SSD Data Integrity and Longevity

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:24 pm A UPS can control what it's governed to control and what a motherboard is designed to provide for a ups to control.
Complete and utter nonsense. A UPS is an Uninterruptable Power Supply, not an Uninterruptable 'Controller'. The only function it needs to meet that definition is to provide electrical power in the absence of mains power. It doesnt need to control anything, or do anything else, and there's nothing on a motherboard that a UPS is designed to control.

Some UPS have additional functionality (basically a serial port, usually now that allow them to send a message that can be understood if the requisite service is running on the OS of the computer to shut it down, but the UPS doesnt control that, or the motherboard.
There's no magic device allowing a ups to also control a pcie card's functions too, or power provided in 98% of cases.
No one has even suggested that except you, when you specifically mooted that a UPS would need to be connected to an individual card.

And that was a completely nonsensical suggestion, as everyone else here has said, based on your complete failure to understand what a UPS is and what it does.

A UPS ensures that the PSU still gets power if the mains supply fails, nothing more than that. That means there's still power to the motherboard, which means there's still power to the devices connected to the motherboard.

Noone except you has suggested that PSUs do, or need to do, anything with regard to the individual devices connected to a motherboard, because if the motherboard still has power, so do the devices.

The core functionality of a UPS is to make sure that power is maintained to the PSU for a certain minimum amount of time, thus powering the motherboard (and thus the devices connected to the motherboard) for that time. To the PSU, and the motherboard, and the devices, being powered by a UPS is exactly the same as it is when the system is normally powered.
You know, exactly like a laptop running on its battery.

And since there's no instantaneous power drop, that's why its protection for SSDs


There's no mystery about this, no need for stupid notions of powering devices individually. Its very very simple; a UPS provides power just like the mains does, in the event that the mains drops out.

Anything else it does, power conditioning, or sending messages over serial or USB in case there's a shutdown service or daemon running, is secondary.

As to your half-understood snakeoil about batteries and capacitors on PCIe SATA card or whatever; modern SSDs actually have mechanisms in place to mitigate loss of data on power loss, including internal capacitors, and firmware solutions as to how changes to the data are stored.
That's just impossible science fiction and a flight of fancy, I will not discuss it further.
Good, because you're the one who made up that flight of fancy in the first place.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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Lol, this is like a bunch of children chiming in saying that they know how a uninterruptable power supply works.
One guy says it's going to keep your non-enterprise ssd from going bad; most times but sometimes no.
And then the guy upstairs just saying whatever strikes his fancy as usual.

But what you're missing, the key component here that neither of you have grasped is that maybe with the right motherboard and power supply you could have better, more predictable power; but a ups is not going to matter unless your power supply is uber and l33t.

It's like talking about growing good onions and carrots without dirt or water. A good power supply has various connections which can be made to a ups. It's ridiculous that I even responded to this utter nonsense. You either don't have the money to buy a good power supply nor the time to watch youtube videos about the differences that a quality power supply can provide if you think a ups is going to solve your problems.

It does make power more regulated, it does sometimes shut your computer off within a set timeframe if you have that set. You can purchase one with a sinewave algorithm that could potentially be more stable and even easier on the wallet, but it won't save your ssd from alternating current.

Like you'd said, the ups has nothing to do with that; and this is why I explain - It is only a good power supply that can ensure such a thing, not so much a ups. It's this point that eluded you; and instead you flame on over some meaningless debacle lol.
Get a good power supply and move on, lol. If either of you knew one bit about this tech you instantly would have mentioned the vital power supply. Noobs, lol.

The other main point made is that PLP was available on many ssd's. That's not true sadly, there's a few generic ones; but it's rare.

Here's a very short list of ssd's with power loss protection (i):
https://www.truenas.com/community/threa ... 998/page-2

When looking around, it becomes very clear that PLP is not something that you would normally find in any non-enterprise ssd. If you were to find the feature, it would be likely a brand or stick that's not as fast in most cases than the most popular.

In the newer samsungs it's not available. But apparently in the 860 it may have been. Here is an article about the most popular m.2 ssd, the 970 evo:
servethehome.com wrote: Excerpt from: Samsung 970 EVO Plus 250GB NVMe SSD Review By Will Taillac
The back is entirely barren except for the sticker. By excluding any back-side components on this drive, it is generally easier to cool since it does not require a cooling solution to be placed between the SSD and motherboard or M.2 card PCB. As these modules are not intended for servers, there is no power loss protection (PLP.) You can read a bit more about why PLP is important in some server workloads in our piece What is the ZFS ZIL SLOG and what makes a good one. That looks at a specific case but has a few diagrams and an explanation around what goes on with these drives when they do and do not have PLP.

reference: https://www.servethehome.com/samsung-97 ... gb-review/
And here's some information from kingston about power loss prevention:
https://www.kingston.com/en/solutions/s ... protection

But, when you get your bearings at the site, you begin to realize; that's it's directed to those with servers, and not to the general user.

So, good power supply, good; solid ssd with a good track record, a good ups, a motherboard furthermore with the right voltage consumption and power levels that are adequate for your processor. For instance, in the case of overclocking it may be that between what is being utilized for your gpu, ram and cpu that you're over the threshold of what your motherboard is designed to provide from the power supply to its connections. In such an event; it becomes quite clear that if your m.2 terminal does not have plp onboard than perhaps this pcie card is your best choice.

It would be nice if there were pcie 4.0 though, even pcie 2.0 users would notice the rapidity. Furthermore; what might be even nicer is for one with a rechargable (non-lithium let's hope Dear God) battery that keeps its reserves refreshed automatically with led status.

That would certainly make getting an enterprise ssd a moot point for the average consumer I'd think.

Here's good general info about power supplies so you can learn the ins and outs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xfN9ZG6xM4

In the video, PC Builder explains that depending on power draw and consumption; you will have much different levels of function withh your power supply as explained in this screenshot:
ssd-efficiency.jpg
Zoom In

So, what's really interesting is; while your computer is using less power, notice that the efficiency is less than distinguishable until you're reffering to the platinum level. While expensive, this will mean like in the case of a car engine, or a motorcycle that your not going to be a gas guzzler while you throttle.

And, if you've put two and two together, you'll realize that if you're overtaxing your processor then at some point it might be a time when your motherboard's benchmarked amp threshold will be tested. I remember I had a computer that would shut down during games in the video scenes and not in the gameplay. What does that say, lol.

Good luck, have fun; do your research please if you wish to chime in and sound smart because you're hopefully trying to contribute to the community, you're helping musicians and artists and programmers safeguard their music, programming, data and storage by giving them the straight goods. But not necessarily, if you're quickly jotting down what you see "could be" "potentially" possible "plausibly" maybe? (especially Like in the case of plp's). And obviously that notion is shot down hard.
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Last edited by kingozrecords on Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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???
gadgets an gizmos..make noise https://soundcloud.com/crystalawareness Restocked: 3/24
old stuff http://ww.dancingbearaudioresearch.com/
if this post is edited -it was for punctuation, grammar, or to make it coherent (or make me seem coherent).

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm Lol, this is like a bunch of children chiming in saying that they know how a uninterruptable power supply works.

Like you'd said, the ups has nothing to do with that; and this is why I explain - It is only a good power supply that can ensure such a thing, not so much a ups. It's this point that eluded you; and instead you flame on over some meaningless debacle lol.
You can LOL all you want but you miss the point.

An uninteruptable power supply sense if power grid is failing and take action, or in the case of double converters is does not need to take action since inverter is running from battery 100% of the time anyway. Only difference is if battery will discharge over time or is charged all the time.

This is completely transparent to pc or any gear fed by it. You have constant 115/230 VAC sine either case to whatever in pc. Powersupply in pc has what it expect - proper AC input.

If you got some gear that keep dc voltages inside pc at power grid failure - go for it.

Keep voltage for an SSD for a while not to be interrupted while writing internally - probably can with a smaller battery depending on how much gear inside run on the same voltage as SSD. But here a capacitor to feed voltage stabilizer chips to SSD?

In real life any data integrity saved - files will not be safe unless main cpu is running basically meaning full computer but graphics card.

If pc boots what are the odds this will not corrupt files?

Prolong life on an SSD, that is utter non sense. A capacitor will discharge voltages a little slower and that will prolong lifespan?

I would not spend any money on that - I'll go for real uninterruptible supply double converter style. You have about 5-20 minutes to nicely shut down your work depending on load on supply. Cost is 10 times this card, but will work for real and having more stable voltage than power grid usually.
:)

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm You can purchase one with a sinewave algorithm
uhuh. definitely sounds like you know how a UPS works. :clap: :clap:
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm Get a good power supply and move on, lol. If either of you knew one bit about this tech you instantly would have mentioned the vital power supply. Noobs, lol.
Is that why you didnt mention it at all until after everyone else had done?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm at some point it might be a time when your motherboard's benchmarked amp threshold will be tested.
Uhuh. Tell us more about this. :hyper: :hyper:
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pmI remember I had a computer that would shut down during games in the video scenes and not in the gameplay. What does that say, lol.
Does it say 'this guy doesnt know how to spec or build a working computer?'
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pmdo your research
Words to live by.

Try understanding it too, without the Dunning-Kruger.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm it won't save your ssd from alternating current.
erm, right.

no, probably not.

probably wont save it from sharks either.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pma ups is not going to matter unless your power supply is uber and l33t.
so how does an 'uber and l33t' power supply protect your system against mains failure again?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm A good power supply has various connections which can be made to a ups.
Hmmm, want to show us a picture of these 'various connections' on a good power supply.

I mean, not just the bog-standard IEC socket the main lead plugs into. The special UPS specific ones.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pmYou either don't have the money to buy a good power supply nor the time to watch youtube videos about the differences that a quality power supply can provide if you think a ups is going to solve your problems.
What if the problem I want solved is mains drop-outs? How does watching a Youtube video fix power outages?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm In the video, PC Builder explains that depending on power draw and consumption; you will have much different levels of function withh your power supply as explained in this screenshot:

ssd-efficiency.jpg
Zoom In
what's 'much different' about '80%' versus '90%' then?

I mean, more than the simple maths of it being 10%.

Please feel free to interpret the 'levels of function' for us.

I mean, naive ol' me would have just thought those were efficiency ratings, ie indications of which lost the least power in the process of converting mains voltages to 5V and 12V. But you're the avowed expert so please explain.

You used an analogy earlier about 'gas guzzling' cars, so what's the 'gas guzzler' level here?
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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kingozrecords wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:37 pm It would be nice if there were pcie 4.0 though, even pcie 2.0 users would notice the rapidity.
I love noticing the rapidity. :hug: :hug:
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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