Question about the motif (music)

[excuse me please]

Not sure, because opinions differ. That said, the first two bars | C - E - C -| C --- F - | could be a motif IMO, but then the 3rd and 4rd bar should go like: | D - F# - D - | D --- G - | because the intervals should be the same from the first note of the phrase.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(music)

[shawshawraw]

I think music happens in between notes so a one-note thing can't be a motif, by itself!

Sound design folks will disagree, though!

[fmr]

Not sure, because opinions differ. That said, the first two bars | C - E - C -| C --- F - | could be a motif IMO, but then the 3rd and 4rd bar should go like: | D - F# - D - | D --- G - | because the intervals should be the same from the first note of the phrase.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(music)

It could, but it had to be treated as such (like in the example you gave). Which it isn't. To be a motif, it needs to be treated and worked according to that. Likewise, a fugue, to be a fugue, needs to be worked following the specific technique for that form. The same for a sonata (which is a form based on motif development, BTW), etc.

Sonate, fugue, motif, phrase, aren't just names, They have musical meanings, and those have been long established. It's not a matter of being "dogmatic" or "scholastic", but simply having the
knowledge.

[Ksamphos]

It might not be impossible to have a motif with one note if you rely much on rhythm to accomplish it. Let's say... There's a peculiar rhythm playing, and suddenly you throw that one note that in the right rhythm and expression just fits so well with the rhythm that ends the game and stays in the memory. I dont know any example, but it doesnt seem impossible.

[jancivil]

But that question regarded a single note, of a single duration; there is no rhythm in it, hence no possibility of reasonably ascribing the term.
a rhythmic motif can be repeated notes, sure; and timbre/tone color may be part of the contour.

the signal motif of Ravel _Bolero_ is a snare drum pattern at base, for instance.
then melodic motifs decorate or dialog over that.

[Ksamphos]

But that question regarded a single note, of a single duration; there is no rhythm in it, hence no possibility of reasonably ascribing the term.
a rhythmic motif can be repeated notes, sure; and timbre/tone color may be part of the contour.

the signal motif of Ravel _Bolero_ is a snare drum pattern at base, for instance.
then melodic motifs decorate or dialog over that.

Than things get tougher, but I wont give up but I'll have to call the help of...
Little winged creatures...
Yes, birds.

There are bird tunes with consist of a single sound. And no one denies that's a suficient motif that makes us recognize the bird and feel something about It. Even recall memories. Sometimes the tune of a special bird can be more special to us than many of our favorite melodies. All we would have to do is find a bird that:
- Has a pattern of singing that may include, sometimes, only one sound followed by silence.
- This single sound belongs to a Key (I mean, it's not out of tune in our musical tradition parameters)

Once there's already catalogued around 10.000 species of birds, that doesnt seem impossible either.

[jancivil]

I don't get what gets tougher. There are rhythmic motifs and that's a kind of musical motif. (actually we'd tend to say Bolero has 4 motifs, in a double period, in the snare drum)
There was a question can one dotted half note itself be a motif, and the answer remains no.

[jancivil]

I wasn't arguing the necessity for different pitches, the question was a single note by itself.

birdsong might even develop motifs. (which typically entail melodic contour in addition to)

[vurt]

birds dont sing!!!
and if they do, its akin to gangsta rap.

yo, get off my turf

you come here and get some egg in you!!!

[Hink]

birds dont sing!!!
and if they do, its akin to gangsta rap.

yo, get off my turf

you come here and get some egg in you!!!

[Ksamphos]

I don't get what gets tougher.

I meant it gets harder to find a single note motif if we can't use percussion aid.

I invented a quite good new argument which involves amphybians, an old piano and a conference of musicians, but I'm not with time to expose It now.

[jancivil]

an analysis of rhythm is an analysis of rhythm, entirely extrictable from the type of sound.

Screen Shot 2021-08-13 at 1.37.46 PM.jpg

The rhythmic motif is what it is, even at a single pitch or no pitch.
The contour is what it is, also independent of specific pitches;
so the development of said motif may be a transposition of the same intervals, as seen here, or it may just retain the contour or parts of either/both, etc.

[jancivil]

I mean yez doesn't have to find them, I guess finding them is another challenge...

that bird liked them perfect fourths

[Vurniks]

Not exactly a motif, but one tone can be very important. Chopin liked to fool around with one tone. Listen to his prelude Opus 28 No. 15 (Raindrops), the 2nd part with the repeat of the tone G#.

[fmr]

Not exactly a motif, but one tone can be very important. Chopin liked to fool around with one tone. Listen to his prelude Opus 28 No. 15 (Raindrops), the 2nd part with the repeat of the tone G#.

OMG, you completely missed it. Do you really only listen to one tone? Listen again, CAREFULLY. And pay attention to the bass line (the melody doesn't always happen in the treble).

And it's not only Chopin who creates phrases and themes like that (with single not/chord ostinati). Listen to the Allegreto (2nd Movement) of the 7h Symphony.