discussion from 101

[Hink]

please and thank you

[briefcasemanx]

I've watched a ton of YouTube videos explaining modes and I still don't get how to tell what mode a song is in.

The notes are the same between the modes of the same key, are the chords different? If the chords are the same I have no idea how anyone would say a song was played in certain mode.

[BertKoor]

I've read wikipedia, it seems way better informed than yer random YouTubers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

Apart from the notion of major and minor scales, the notion of modes seems a limited medieval view on music.

I find it's enough to determine the tonic (root note) of a song and then find the scale.
1: third note being major or minor
2: seventh note half or whole away from the root (you might encounter "accidentals" of these)

Combine two choices: that's four different scales. If it gives comfort in knowing its Phrygian or Mixolydian, power to you! I don't care but do get by just fine.

Oh, and then there's pentatonic. You can build a musical career on just that!

[imrae]

Step 1: By ear, identify the root and notes of the scale being used
Step 2: write them down, pretending that the root note was C
Step 3: compare the resulting key signature (sharps/flats) to the figure at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)

The nice thing is that if you can hear intervals you never need to know if the root note was really A, B, C... But if you know that as well then you can transpose to get the actual scale.

The tricky part is having enough musical awareness to ignore "accidental" notes that are not part of the scale. Or realise that diatonic modes don't describe the piece you're listening to very well.

[fmr]

Apart from the notion of major and minor scales, the notion of modes seems a limited medieval view on music.

Debussy, Messiaen, Stravinsky, Bartok, Satie, Orff... they would all disagree with you

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Likewise Palestrina and co. Modern major and minor are but two out of seven modes.

Anyway, before going that route, it may be noted that this thread is a fine candidate for the new 101 forum. In the good way.

[Melkor]

What most texts and sites about modes DONT tell you:

Western music, for a few centuries now, almost requires some form of V7-I or V7-Im for resolution

If you harmonize the modes, they don't have V7.
Ionian did/does, and Aeolian was hacked to have one as well.
The rest of them have dodgy fifth chords.

So, we can see why they were binned at that time, from a harmonic perspective.
No V7.

[lobanov]

Modes differ 1) by their roots and 2) by qualities of their central harmonic functions (tonic, subdominant, domonant). These two aspects determine each other.

In major (Ionian mode) we have three major chords: T, S, D.

In minor (Aeolian mode) we have three minor chords: t, s, d.

(I think this is one of reasons why they dominante in Western music. They provide stability and distinctness. Major is major, minor... is minor.)

In Dorian mode we have two minor chords (t, d) and one major chord (S).

In Phrygian mode we have two minor chords (t, s) and one diminished chord (d0)

Etc.

P. S. I mean diatonic modes only that can be consructed on "white keys", but there are different ones.

[BertKoor]

Apart from the notion of major and minor scales, the notion of modes seems a limited medieval view on music.

Debussy, Messiaen, Stravinsky, Satie, Orff... they would all disagree with you

I'm sure they do, but they make much more complex music than Rock'nRoll (or EDM)

[jancivil]

'same chords' has nothing to do with it.
if you have Gm-C, it could be ii-V of F. A strong function to a tonality, F.
It would be i-IV in G Dorian. It's iv-VII per D Aeolian. It could be a tonicization of F while the key isn't F.
The difference is the relationship to a central tone, as though its tonic.

I would personally say that if there is a V7-I the tonal paradigm is prevailing, hence not modal. So that breaks Ionian.
Ionian afaic is like Zappa Watermelon in Easter Hay, the melody's first note is ^7 but what it does, and always does, is #4 of an A chord which gets back to C# from which it is bent (and IV is only ever going back to I; hence C# to B, A, G#). It's not a leading tone, there is no dominant-tonic paradigm, = modal music. CF: Bilaval Thaat in ICM/that family of ragas, ^7 has other designs typically.

[jancivil]

"seems a limited medieval view on music."
to you. How is the major/minor paradigm not as limited
NB: that's a rhetorical question

[jackoo]

I have very limited knowledge of "theory". Others please feel free to correct me.
But this is the way I see it:

Find a way to play the whole song (or its melody) using only the white keys, by transposing.
Then find the key that seems to be the tonic (root). This note gives you the mode. If you end up on a C it's Ionic, if D is Dorian, etc.

If you realize you can't play the whole song using only white keys, then there's some kind of modulation happening, and there is no answer to your original question. Of course you can do this on subsections of the piece if the mode changes, I guess.

[jancivil]

Well, one can find, or fabricate scales towards modal usage which don't fit the diatonic paradigm... and modulation is from a key to another key, modes are not keys, nor said to be in a key. So the mode exceeding the diatonic set or what you call white keys is not from modulating.

probably best to get a sense of intervals in themselves as opposed to having to transpose from white keys.
If we're transcribing things which are not white key by ear we really do not want extra mentation as though necessary.

[cryophonik]

I have very limited knowledge of "theory". Others please feel free to correct me.
But this is the way I see it:

Find a way to play the whole song (or its melody) using only the white keys, by transposing.
Then find the key that seems to be the tonic (root). This note gives you the mode. If you end up on a C it's Ionic, if D is Dorian, etc.

If you realize you can't play the whole song using only white keys, then there's some kind of modulation happening, and there is no answer to your original question. Of course you can do this on subsections of the piece if the mode changes, I guess.

That seems like a lot of unnecessary effort just to avoid using the black keys. My advice is this: don't fear the black keys, embrace them. Start simple by just playing chromatic scales up and down the keyboard thinking of them in terms of sharps (i.e., C, C#, D, D#...), then do the same with flats until it just becomes second nature (it won't take long, I promise). Then move onto major and minor scales, then modes. Think in terms of intervals. Intervals are key (no pun intended).

[jancivil]

as to seeming medieval, let's look at what's called Lydian mode in current practice, any kind of music where it's treated modally.
Pretty prevalent in movie music, in fact John Williams is known for it in the Star Wars thing. Lydian in medieval practice doesn't do that, typically the idea is correct that particular dissonance, as though a knotty problem, by a musica ficta to so-called Ionian which is a later term and pretty much academic rather than it being a thing in itself so-to-speak in the practice prevalent in the Church music in those days. That kind of awe-inspiring #4 in movie music wasn't it.

major/minor can't be modal, modal can't be dominant/tonic tonality, both have their lane/are limited in practice.
one is free to move beyond and still employ facets or aspects of them.