discussion from 101

[The Noodlist]

Robbie Calvo is big on modes for guitar, he also has some courses on modes at Truefire, they also have $5 daily deals.



 

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

First there were modes. And the modes floated between chaos and order. Minstrels improvised. Munk composed. Somehow synergies between pagan and church music rose even though they were kept apart for a long time. Church adopted polyphony from pagan music, but put it into system. Improvisation in church music was unthinkable, but structured polyphony came into play, and now it became the monks that inspired the minstrels, who began arranging their instrumentation more orderly. Modes were like closed systems, you had no reason to leave them; endless tunes can be made of 7 tones and still can. However, chromatic departure from the modes saw the day, and we began to modulate to other keys outside the mode. At some point, the V-I paradigm selected the modes fit for this “lead tone trend”. By the release from modes by modulations and chromatic variations, practise seems to have selected ionian and aeolian as fit for most tasks of modern music. Still we find a lot of use of modes within modern music, e.g. Goa, Psy and EBM have adopted phrygian mode since forever. Lot of filmmusic is known for use of lydian etc.

[jancivil]

7 tones may be too many afaic.
my own 'synthetic' modes have tended towards having six.
The super-exotic Marwa has six for example.

major and minor "as fit for most tasks of modern music." not so much, unless "modern music" means something I don't recognize as modern. Some people mean 'pop music' by it.

[briefcasemanx]

Most of the replies are incomprehensible. Like they're trying to explain modes to people who already know a lot about music theory and already very obviously know what modes are.

How do I determine which is the "root" note? Is there a deterministic algorithm for finding the root? If I know with certainty what the root note is, then finding the mode is easy, if my understanding is at all correct. Finding a key signature is easy.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

major and minor "as fit for most tasks of modern music." not so much, unless "modern music" means something I don't recognize as modern. Some people mean 'pop music' by it.

Agree, I just said that practise made this selection. With chromatic freedom you can turn any mode into anything else if needed, e.g. turning natural minor not harmonic. I play with modes too, even mixed modes, so I am not throwing myself under any V-I truck. Odin forbid it.

[shawshawraw]

Most of the replies are incomprehensible. Like they're trying to explain modes to people who already know a lot about music theory and already very obviously know what modes are.

How do I determine which is the "root" note? Is there a deterministic algorithm for finding the root? If I know with certainty what the root note is, then finding the mode is easy, if my understanding is at all correct. Finding a key signature is easy.

Hmm... Google "Songs in Dorian mode playlist", for example. Do you feel a different "tonal centre"? (Which note do you want to rest upon at the end of a phrase? Which note gives you a "closing" feeling while others sound like the flow is still "open"?)

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

How do I determine which is the "root" note? Is there a deterministic algorithm for finding the root? If I know with certainty what the root note is, then finding the mode is easy, if my understanding is at all correct. Finding a key signature is easy.

Root note is the central note from which you start and end your tune. In music with more voices it is the bass note. You cannot go from determination of root note to mode, it is the other way around. You select a mode you want to compose in, and then decide what root note to take departure from. Say I want to make an middle eastern sounding tune, in such cases frygian would be a good departure or some of its chromatic variations. I want it to sound deep and dark, so I choose a low bass note for root. Roots are implied in keys as well, a D major key has D as root note.

[jancivil]

"How do I determine which is the "root" note? Is there a deterministic algorithm for finding the root?"
By ear. I wouldn't know about that cheat mechanism.

a 'mode' is a scalar set which has a certain character, owing to certain relationships with its central tone, which I'm calling 'tonic' despite the connotation of tonality. So as I've touched on with one thing which seems like could be tonal, gave my reasons it's modal and not tonal.
character tones identify a mode: Lydian has its #4 to tonic, which is a tension other than will be resolved like harmonic music; it could simply resolve back into M3, it could go to 5, it could elide a stepwise move, but what it doesn't do is V-I. IE: C Lydian's F# doesn't function as a leading tone to the key of G major, that's tonal function. So if what you get is D7 to G, you've killed C Lydian dead.

[jancivil]

"Root note" in fact is the basis of a chord or harmony. C major's root is C; C Ionian hasn't a root, the term is 'tonic' or central tone./pedantic but
Why is there a necessity to begin or end with a tonic? by which I mean there absolutely isn't.

[jancivil]

"If I know with certainty what the root note is, then finding the mode is easy, if my understanding is at all correct. Finding a key signature is easy."
it's down to you to know. By ear. The thing to do in_the_beginning is get experience with extant music and develop an ear. If you cannot do this yourself by ear... information by itself is dead dry, you don't learn swimming to swim by reading books about it.

NB: the key signature for D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian is zero sharps or flats. None are key of C. None are in a key at all. That's not helping determine mode.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Why is there a necessity to begin or end with a tonic? by which I mean there absolutely isn't.

Well, the paradigm is determined by convention, you know that. No necessities, afaic there are examples of melodies starting elswhere than tonic, at least I have one figure in the oven starting on the third, but common practise has have its favorites for sure.

As far as the nomenclatura concerns, i prefer root when speaking about a tonal center of a mode. The first of the seven tones. Tonic is another name for it, but since it as well can be associated with functional chord analysis in which the term refers to a basic triad or tetrad, I prefer root when it comes to modal music and could concern one or two voices only, like a bass figure whose central note is the root, and a melody above it. However, basically I am not into semantic discussions, I just like putting the notion of modes into actiion for what we need and forget the rest. Guess that makes me a pragmatist.

[fmr]

What most texts and sites about modes DONT tell you:

Western music, for a few centuries now, almost requires some form of V7-I or V7-Im for resolution

If you harmonize the modes, they don't have V7.
Ionian did/does, and Aeolian was hacked to have one as well.
The rest of them have dodgy fifth chords.

So, we can see why they were binned at that time, from a harmonic perspective.
No V7.

They were "binned" because slowly they evolved to just two. Because of the "musica ficta" practice, the modes became redundant, and with the establishment of tonality only two survived: minor (which was basically the mode of D with the B flat - the very first common alteration) and Major (which was basically the modes of F (with the same B flat) or the mode of G (with the raised seventh degree, to form the leading tone).

Unfortunately, in the process the mode of E kind of disappeared, except on some folk traditions. But in the end of the XIXth century and the first half of the XXth century we watched a revival of modalism by many composers.

The other modes allegedly mentioned in some treaties were simply non-existant in musical practce.

[jancivil]

Why is there a necessity to begin or end with a tonic? by which I mean there absolutely isn't.

Well, the paradigm is determined by convention, you know that.

never heard anything of the sort in my life before the internet
it's not a paradigm to me in any sense

i prefer root when speaking about a tonal center of a mode.
OK, but that's you against the world
No skin off of any part of me, mind

I noticed with some recent endings on a real I I totally did not want 'Do' on top. a melody begins where it begins naturally, 'common practice' (which is in use about like the Latin language is today) notwithstanding. It no exagg has literally never occurred to me as a thing, I wouldn't expect to find a prevalence.

[briefcasemanx]

"a mode is a scalar set"

Yeah, I'll leave this forum now so you can continue to have discussions between people that already know music theory. I think I did mean tonic instead of root, but it's irrelevant.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

"a mode is a scalar set"

Yeah, I'll leave this forum now so you can continue to have discussions between people that already know music theory. I think I did mean tonic instead of root, but it's irrelevant.

Tonic and root are two names of the same, mate. It is just that tonic may as well refer to a basic triad or tetrad, chords on the first note of the scale. Before functional chord analysis, tonic just referred to forst note in a diatonic scale.