discussion from 101

[fmr]

i am sorry fmr, but I do not see the point of your objections. You are making strawmans and trouble for nothing afaic. I just gave some examples from our own Freya’s Dance about modualtions within and beyond the mode. Simple as that.That is how I was taught, that is what my music books imply and most importantly, that is how I use it in practise, confirming the consistency. I don’t follow you and have to pass. Maybe others can make something out of it.

Don't take it personally please. We are just exchanging ideas. We may have completely different music backgrounds, and music is not established science.

Can you please point me to a source for a score of your Freya's Dance, so I can analyse it?

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

That would be my piano roll, fmr. Couldn’t you just take a listen? Most things happen in Cm natural. We start the deal with a bridge, a Cm, Bb, Ab round. Then we stay at Cm, while the melody unfolds the first time. Then some bridges again, then melody second time, but with guitar harmonization and chorus too. Then bridges again. Then the B part in Bb + the C part in Fm, then bridges and melody again with no bass (break like) and chorus with all and add ons. At the ending we pay a visit to fm again, the C part, for a little tension and then end it all back in Cm. All harmonies are due to the interaction between the rhythm violins and guitar + a little choir and bagpipes now and then.

https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154/freyas-dance

It became a little too long, but I did not have energy to shorten it, sorry.

[fmr]

That would be my piano roll, fmr. Couldn’t you just take a listen? Most things happen in Cm natural. We start the deal with a bridge, a Cm, Bb, Ab round. Then we stay at Cm, while the melody unfolds the first time. Then some bridges again, then melody second time, but with guitar harmonization and chorus too. Then bridges again. Then the B part in Bb + the C part in Fm, then bridges and melody again with no bass (break like) and chorus with all and add ons. At the ending we pay a visit to fm again, the C part, for a little tension and then end it all. All harmonies are due to the interaction between the rhythm violins and guitar + a little choir and bagpipes now and then.

https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154/freyas-dance

It became a little too long, but I did not have energy to shorten it, sorry.

OK, I will look into it. So, it isn't a traditional melody, or is it traditional and you arranged it?

[Old Nick]

Wagner wrote a whole music drama explaining that we make our own rules when making music. An Indian or an Arab musician encountering this thread would probably just shrug and move on.

[fmr]

Wagner wrote a whole music drama explaining that we make our own rules when making music. An Indian or an Arab musician encountering this thread would probably just shrug and move on.

Yes, but nothing comes out of anarchy. Wagner created over an established tradition, his music didn't came out of nothing. He made his own rules OVER the rules already established. Even Niezsche, which was an admirer, and far from being an ignorant in what concerns music, wrote: "Wagner is not the prophet of the future, as perhaps he would wish to appear to us, but the interpreter and clarifier of the past.”

An Indian or an Arab also have their own rules to make music. Actually, they follow much more strict rules than western music, AFAIK.

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

OK, I will look into it. So, it isn't a traditional melody, or is it traditional and you arranged it?

No, it is my own, but one has actually said he thought it was generic, which I do not know is a compliment or not. It is based on loose inspirations from medieval folk music. Scandinavian folk music tends to make extensive use of aeolian, so I went for it straight away with absolutely no ambitions of modulating outside it, e.g. chromatically. In other words, I want it to sound traditional…and yet a little different with the mix of electro and folk arrangement. Judge for yourself.

Edit: Oops! For some reason I have placed almost subliminal guitar chords on the first beat of every measure together with the violins, so I must admit that there are some supporting chords . They are not really necessary, so why the heck did I not just remove them, I wonder Maybe because they are so discrete and I forgot The electric rhythm guitar in the beginning is also playing chords, but the sound is percussive and supports rhythm rather than harmony.

Edit 2: In constrast to staying withín mode in Freya´s Dance, I also have an example where we modulate outside of a mode. At about 1.24 in the tune "Norn Song", we modulate from C aeolian to A phrygian (besides from changing time signature 6/8 -> 4/4), then change it to A aeolian, a pause, and then back to C aeolian and 6/8. Since A is not part of C aeolian, we went outside the mode and back in this case. Norn Song is multimodal in some sense because we have phrygian moves in the bass while the melody is aeolian. Likewise, the tune "Valkyrie" has locrian moves in the bass while the melodies are aeolian.

[jancivil]

never heard anything of the sort in my life before the internet
it's not a paradigm to me in any sense

You have never heard of V-I as a paradigm, something that ordered musical practise during late history? Call it a trend then. You know what I mean by V-I if any.

what that has to do with melody needing to be starting and ending on Do like it's a thing is a complete mystery to me.

[jancivil]

I have the feeling y'all are talking about/in concepts way beyond '101' level. Just sayin'...

this originally was another thread tho, "I still don't get modes" or something

[jancivil]

I use "tonic" for the tonal center of a mode. I don't care for that level of pedantry. I expect some do.
(I don't really care about someone saying 'root of a mode' since he ain't teaching it, even.)


Back to interest: As far as Indian musicians per the thread:

7 tones may be too many afaic.
my own 'synthetic' modes have tended towards having six.
The super-exotic Marwa has six for example.

is something one will recognize.

Every Indian musician I've spoken to regarding a raga or raag and it's thaat or melakarta refers to Sa (Do to the west) 'tonic'. I don't expect many of us are that into wasting words just to avoid a possible connotation. We all know what's been said.
Also the strong objection to scalar talking about a mode is way over-the-top afaic, and disagrees with a basic definition.
of or relating to a musical scale. and the proof of that concept is once upon a time there was an earlier concept, the hexachord (which no one uses outside that era except as an historical academic reference)?

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

never heard anything of the sort in my life before the internet
it's not a paradigm to me in any sense

You have never heard of V-I as a paradigm, something that ordered musical practise during late history? Call it a trend then. You know what I mean by V-I if any.

what that has to do with melody needing to be starting and ending on Do like it's a thing is a complete mystery to me.

I am not really sure a starting and ending on tonic is necessary for at melody in polyphonic music where you have the bass note to determine the root. In gregorian chants, the focusing of tonal center was left to one voice. There it is a little harder. However, I thought we were talking about the V-I and not the start and end note thing. Think I forgot about it. If I have given any impression that start note end note of melody is necessary, in the V-I or not, it is not the case. Point would rather be that the root, whether singlevoiced or as bass in harmonies, starting and ending on tonic is part of the V-I trend.

[Hink]

sorry, agree with bert

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

Hey, the North is under surprise attack here, Hink. I have to stand up for it. They want to screw our men, beat our women and eat our dogs or something.That’s Valhalla rising. Only a ban can stop it. Hail Odin.

[jancivil]

Why is there a necessity to begin or end with a tonic? by which I mean there absolutely isn't.

Well, the paradigm is determined by convention, you know that.

never heard anything of the sort in my life before the internet
it's not a paradigm to me in any sense

And I'm not buying root of a mode because of what a definition is. A seven-note scalar set according to this has 8 roots including the root of the scale/key or mode. and here are two definitions, which means not really definite.

[jancivil]

who's on first

[Hink]

you know why Abba and Elvis Costello never went on tour? It would be the Abba Costello tour and they couldn't figure out who's on first