ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[machinesworking]

At some point Kore will not run on a modern OS, in the case of Mac OS that's already true, and I would bet there are dozens of configurations, upgrades to the DAW etc. that are breaking Kore on windows. the choice will be old computer clutter for Kore or to abandon it.

You mean the same sorts of choices we all make with our hardware, whether it be running out of space or not having enough channels in our mixers or whatever. I reckon Kore will still be working with Windows long after your hardware is dead.

You're an interesting character, I'll give you that. I'm not here to make the hardware is better™ argument, but you're forcing the conversation that way. My Memorymoog works even better than when I bought it, it's also worth 10x what I paid for it. My first computer and software on the other hand...

Kore won't work at all on Windows without paying attention to the newer plug ins that might crash it, and in 4-5 years when Windows is developed for their own Arm SOCs it's not going to work at all. RME drivers for 20 year old hardware they make will. So will U-He plug ins.

NI like many companies at some point depreciates old hardware and software. There are companies that do not do this if they can help it.

Name one. I can't think of any.

I've already named quite a few, you get in a tissy fit about it, but RME are a fine example. Why are you glossing this over? Control surfaces that have no internal storage at all, that rely on software solutions like NI's Controller Editor will eventually be depreciated. Control surfaces like the Komplete SL, Linnstrument, Akai MPK, etc. etc. etc. that have internal presets that can be set up to use MIDI CCs etc. will not eventually die because their software is discontinued.

At some point this just becomes extremely redundant. You're just arguing to argue, the point is pretty straightforward, software only based solutions for hardware is a bad idea in the long run. The fact it's even a thing is just weird considering how little CPU and RAM it takes to add in presets and internal CC mapping etc.

[machinesworking]

Actually, RME have a fairly extensive list of "Legacy" products. All products have a life-cycle, it's how things get better over time.

legacy in RME terms just means they don’t sell it anymore. if you bothered to check the driver compatibility you’d have noticed that most of those products are still supported by the current drivers. the one difference is going to be in things like pci cards where current pc chipsets don’t support the old pci format. but for firewire and usb, they tend to keep the old stuff running.

It goes beyond that. I posted about Firewire support on the M1 chips, the moderator/owner at RME on their forum thought that there wasn't any way to do it until someone else mentioned that the Thunderbolt spec supports firewire, they had a driver for the 15+ year old Fireface 800 out in two weeks. They update the driver about 3 times a year, for a device they haven't sold in probably a decade. It's also capable of stand alone operation, so it will never be useless considering it has four preamps built in.

[pdxindy]

It's really not worth it. He hasn't even bothered to read about it or understand the difference between initial pressure and velocity. OR initial pressure and aftertouch presure. Totally different data.

The only downside of this type of expression is that it doesn't translate so well to all the sound sources out there using MPE. Unless MPE synths adopted initial pressure as another modulation source? Or could it become a replacement for velocity in the sound sources. Obviously it would have to be listen to totally different data, but a soft synth would probably just one or the other right? Or perhaps some patches would translate ok using initial pressure to the slide modulation, or MPE pressure triggered from Osmose initial pressure and osmose aftertouch triggering MPE slide. There would be problems with most patches with all things translations though because it's really a different performance technique.

My understanding, which will be more informed by hands on experience once I have the Osmose in hand, is that initial pressure doesn't translate well to the usual MPE synth. The Osmose has a number of modes. Here is one of the videos showing the Osmose as a midi controller for various synths.

[Ploki]

Didn’t they explicitly state that they intend to keep supporting it?

They don't really support it as it is.

also they made the whole ordeal much more convoluted.
At first you had a Dashboard app which you would use to configure Seaboards and Blocks.
now, you need to install some f**king malware called ROLI Connect which needs to install drivers and reside sin your menubar and it's working only via Rosetta.

[Ploki]

My understanding, which will be more informed by hands on experience once I have the Osmose in hand, is that initial pressure doesn't translate well to the usual MPE synth. The Osmose has a number of modes. Here is one of the videos showing the Osmose as a midi controller for various synths.

initial pressure looks like some kind of depth sensor?

[machinesworking]

Didn’t they explicitly state that they intend to keep supporting it?

They don't really support it as it is.

also they made the whole ordeal much more convoluted.
At first you had a Dashboard app which you would use to configure Seaboards and Blocks.
now, you need to install some f**king malware called ROLI Connect which needs to install drivers and reside sin your menubar and it's working only via Rosetta.

Yeah nothing made me WTF? as much as Rolis BS Roli Connect. It doesn't even support all their products, which makes it even more blatantly obvious what it's intention is, marketing in your menu bar.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I wonder fi there are old versions of the roli dashboard floating around. Maybe installers on the site? Just for backup.

[pdxindy]

My understanding, which will be more informed by hands on experience once I have the Osmose in hand, is that initial pressure doesn't translate well to the usual MPE synth. The Osmose has a number of modes. Here is one of the videos showing the Osmose as a midi controller for various synths.

initial pressure looks like some kind of depth sensor?

Yes, looks like that. From watching the videos it looks very precise and controllable. I'm keen to try it out!

[Ploki]

I wonder fi there are old versions of the roli dashboard floating around. Maybe installers on the site? Just for backup.

doesn't work anymore if you by any chance updated firmware on your blocks/seaboard.
Wants "drivers"
which are only available via roli connect

if you sign in to roli account

[BONES]

I've tried that, but it seems max velocity isn't affected by the velocity curve. One way to mitigate that for me is to make the curve such that most of the range is loud (dynamically) so the fortissimo feels less abrupt (as most of the notes played will already be loud, the difference will be less dramatic). Another way is to limit the max velocity using a MIDI utility plugin. This works better for some VSTi.

Surely the simplest solution is to reduce Velocity -> Amp in the instrument/patch itself? Probably not an option for every synth but certainly for most.

legacy in RME terms just means they don’t sell it anymore. if you bothered to check the driver compatibility you’d have noticed that most of those products are still supported by the current drivers.

You didn't read in context, which was that companies try not to EOL their products when, of course, they do it all the time. As I said, I can still get drivers for the MIDIman USB to MIDI device I bought more than 20 years ago, even though MIDIman was gobbled up by Avid 17 or 18 years ago. It's a non-point no matter which way you look at it. In 20 years of working ITB the one and only discontinuity I've had with any of my tools was going from 32 bit to 64 bit but that was a choice I made, not anything that was thrust upon me. All my 32 bit software still runs perfectly well on my current laptop, I simply chose to move on from it.

I have two of products from that list which still work flawlessly and native on an M1 mac - which is more than i can say for much, much newer ROLI products that aren’t (weren’t) legacy and need rosetta to run

Sorry but that's your own stupid fault for making a really shit choice of OS. You can't blame Roli for your own failings. You had to know going in that Apple don't give a flying f**k about you or your legacy products, but you went ahead anyway. There is no-one at fault here but you.

RME support is really impressive... When it comes to audio interfaces, I only buy RME

If they were the only brand that was "really impressive", I might see your point but there are a dozen brands who make really impressive audio interfaces for a fraction of the price. And by "fraction", I don't mean two-thirds or half, I mean one-tenth. I've bought semi-expensive interfaces and not found I got anything at all to justify the price. I don't think anyone who spends more than a few hundred bucks is getting anything extra for their money.

He hasn't even bothered to read about it or understand the difference between initial pressure and velocity.

Sadly, it is you has not bothered to think. The difference between initial pressure and velocity is not the issue, the issue I see, based on my experience with my Seaboards and other keyboards I've used over the last 40 years, is how you would actually play to do one and not the other.

OR initial pressure and aftertouch presure. Totally different data.

If I could spew data from my fingertips, that might matter but I can't, I can just hit the keys harder or softer and, as I've said, that will increase both velocity and pressure together. I simply can't imagine a playing style where you could hope to separate them and reading what you've managed in response to my question, it seems you've not thought about it all. If you've seen a video where someone manages it, I'd be extremely keen to have a look at it but it's not something I've been able to find.

No. The Osmose is crap 'cause it's really expensive.

Who knows? The thing is that it will need to be very good to justify the price and from what I've seen so far, the build quality seems questionable, which makes you wonder how durable it might be. But it's impossible to know until we've had a chance to try it for ourselves, isn't it?

My Memorymoog works even better than when I bought it

But you didn't buy it new, did you? It was someone else's cast-off. Someone who didn't think it was worth keeping. I can't imagine a time when you could have given me one.

in 4-5 years when Windows is developed for their own Arm SOCs it's not going to work at all. RME drivers for 20 year old hardware they make will. So will U-He plug ins.

Windows has been running on ARM for longer than macOS. You've been able to buy ARM-based Windows laptops for several years now but nobody does because there is no point. RISC-based CPUs have been around for a long time but never really taken hold because there's no point to them. There was a time when DEC Alpha was the server CPU of choice but Intel had no problem beating them into submission decades ago. And if you look closely at what Apple are offering with the M1 now, it's swings and roundabouts. It's slightly better at some thing but behind in others. There is certainly nothing there that would make me buy an M1 powered laptop over a Ryzen or Core i one.

NI like many companies at some point depreciates old hardware and software. There are companies that do not do this if they can help it.

I've already named quite a few

No you haven't. Every single company you may have mentioned has products that it no longer manufactures or sells and you cannot possibly know how difficult those decisions were for them, so you cannot speak to "if they can help it". It's nothing more than your own wishful thinking.

Why are you glossing this over?

I'm not glossing it over. I went to the effort to dig up a whole page of products RME decided to stop making. I even tried to find evidence that those decisions might have been difficult for them, but found none. I also gave you the example of my MIDIman MIDIsport device to show that what you think is something special is, in fact, just par for the course. I'm not sure how much more thorough I could have been.

Control surfaces that have no internal storage at all, that rely on software solutions like NI's Controller Editor will eventually be depreciated.

The word is "deprecated" and NI deprecating something doesn't stop it from working for another 20 years.

Control surfaces like the Komplete SL, Linnstrument, Akai MPK, etc. etc. etc. that have internal presets that can be set up to use MIDI CCs etc. will not eventually die because their software is discontinued.

Neither will anything from Roli, because Seaboards and Blocks are both able to store and execute lots of code. My Lightpad, for example, will store any app I load into it. If Dashboard stopped working, I'd be stuck with whichever app I had loaded but that's OK because I always have the same app loaded. So get your facts straight if you want have a useful discussion.

You're just arguing to argue, the point is pretty straightforward

If it appears straightforward, that's because you are being simplisitic and only looking at one side of the argument. What appears straightforward to me is how completely wrong you are on pretty much every point you have made and I have provided solid evidence to refute each of them.

[gaggle of hermits]

You didn't read in context, which was that companies try not to EOL their products when, of course, they do it all the time.

The word the poster used was “deprecate”. You just decided to interpret it a different way to try to score a point, as per your usual (tiresome) modus operandi here. with your following argument you seem to understand the original meaning though the term used was ambiguous, so why go through this constant attempt at point-scoring? is your ego really that fragile?

[BONES]

Actually, the word he used was "depreciate". But I figured he meant "deprecate", which means, according to the dictionary -
deprecate
[ˈdɛprɪkeɪt]
VERB
(chiefly of a software feature) be usable but regarded as obsolete and best avoided, typically because it has been superseded.

So given that the word wasn't really applicable, I chose to interpret it from context, as meaning that he felt some companies don't EOL product lines if they can help it. EOL (End Of Life) being a term more commonly used with entire products, not just features, as in software.

But you know what he was trying to say just as well as I do and he was just f**king wrong. He thinks the fact that RME still supports their obsolete products is something unique, when it's not even close, as I illustrated. He uses that delusion to justify spending thousands of dollars, rather than hundreds, which makes him seem to me like the biggest fool going, exactly the kind of customer greedy corporations love. Seriously, read the whole thing - what he says is that he spent several thousand dollars, rather than a couple of hundred, so that he could avoid possibly having to spend another couple of hundred on something else if his first couple of hundred didn't turn out so well. By my calculations he has deluded himself out of a minimum of $2600. Is that the act of a sane, rational person? (Hint: No, it is not.)

[Ploki]

As I said, I can still get drivers for the MIDIman USB to MIDI device I bought more than 20 years ago

no, you don't understand- i can get freshly updated drivers for FireFace 800 that i bought 20 years ago.

Sorry but that's your own stupid fault for making a really shit choice of OS. You can't blame Roli for your own failings. You had to know going in that Apple don't give a flying f**k about you or your legacy products, but you went ahead anyway. There is no-one at fault here but you.

"oh ploki, what a dumbass why do you buy new computers, keep using computers you bought 20 years ago dumbass"

It's not just macOS, it's also windows7, 10, blah blah.
2004 when FireFace800 was released was still windows XP era.

ROLI had super-tight apple integration in the beginning, it work better and more features worked for Apple iOS and macOS than any other system, Noise app was iOS exclusive for years. it isn't stupid of me to assume they'd be among first to support an apple ecosystem, given they had ARM apps dating back years.

I don't give a f**k about my legacy products either, that's why i don't buy shit from companies who deliberately make their stuff obsolete. RME is not one of them, that's why i don't bother buying any other interface.
Seaboard RISE is not a 100$ cheap-shit controller, it was 800€ when it came out, and it was still sold and manufactured this year.
I'm absolutely not blaming apple for developers to be stupid slow in ARM adoption.

If they were the only brand that was "really impressive", I might see your point but there are a dozen brands who make really impressive audio interfaces for a fraction of the price. And by "fraction", I don't mean two-thirds or half, I mean one-tenth. I've bought semi-expensive interfaces and not found I got anything at all to justify the price. I don't think anyone who spends more than a few hundred bucks is getting anything extra for their money.

Name one

[gaggle of hermits]

Actually, the word he used was "depreciate". But I figured he meant "deprecate", which means, according to the dictionary -
deprecate
[ˈdɛprɪkeɪt]
VERB
(chiefly of a software feature) be usable but regarded as obsolete and best avoided, typically because it has been superseded.

So given that the word wasn't really applicable, I chose to interpret it from context, as meaning that he felt some companies don't EOL product lines if they can help it. EOL (End Of Life) being a term more commonly used with entire products, not just features, as in software.

as you’re such a fan of semantics: “An end-of-life product (EOL product) is a product at the end of the product lifecycle which prevents users from receiving updates, indicating that the product is at the end of its useful life (from the vendor's point of view).” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-life_product

a product that’s receiving updates therefore would not seem to be EOL. so it’s bit of a mystery as to why you’re pushing that strongly in this context.

[machinesworking]

My Memorymoog works even better than when I bought it

But you didn't buy it new, did you? It was someone else's cast-off. Someone who didn't think it was worth keeping. I can't imagine a time when you could have given me one.

Your opinion here is classic hedging, you're ignoring the point, the 286 CP from the 80's is worthless, the moog is not, and is worth 10x what it cost new. This is low hanging fruit garbage, I'm not interested in arguing about whether you like something.

in 4-5 years when Windows is developed for their own Arm SOCs it's not going to work at all. RME drivers for 20 year old hardware they make will. So will U-He plug ins.

Windows has been running on ARM for longer than macOS. You've been able to buy ARM-based Windows laptops for several years now but nobody does because there is no point. RISC-based CPUs have been around for a long time but never really taken hold because there's no point to them. There was a time when DEC Alpha was the server CPU of choice but Intel had no problem beating them into submission decades ago. And if you look closely at what Apple are offering with the M1 now, it's swings and roundabouts. It's slightly better at some thing but behind in others. There is certainly nothing there that would make me buy an M1 powered laptop over a Ryzen or Core i one.

You're misinformed here. Arm works better in the M1 for two reasons, larger pool to pull data from in Arm, and the SOC design. Microsoft used Qualcom off the shelf Arm chips in their Surface and get hardly any of the advantages you're seeing in the M1. This is why months ago Microsoft announced they're designing their own Arm chips. So is pretty much everybody in the industry.

Your ignorant hatred of Apple is clouding your ability to see where the future is headed.

NI like many companies at some point depreciates old hardware and software. There are companies that do not do this if they can help it.

I've already named quite a few

No you haven't. Every single company you may have mentioned has products that it no longer manufactures or sells and you cannot possibly know how difficult those decisions were for them, so you cannot speak to "if they can help it". It's nothing more than your own wishful thinking.

Good god you will literally obfuscate wildly to be "right". They have stopped making products, (RME for example), they have not stopped supporting them with drivers for modern OS's. This isn't hard to follow, you're just obsessed with "winning", at all cost.

Why are you glossing this over?

I'm not glossing it over. I went to the effort to dig up a whole page of products RME decided to stop making. I even tried to find evidence that those decisions might have been difficult for them, but found none. I also gave you the example of my MIDIman MIDIsport device to show that what you think is something special is, in fact, just par for the course. I'm not sure how much more thorough I could have been.

Again, ignoring all the examples I gave of discontinued products by other companies that are not supported with new drivers, that in the case of Kore, will have issues with modern plug ins. Going back to your favorite DAW, it's gone, you yourself admitted that it was starting to have issues with newer plug ins, this isn't rocket science, and you're just digging in on a ridiculous claim, that depreciated software will run just fine forever.

Control surfaces that have no internal storage at all, that rely on software solutions like NI's Controller Editor will eventually be depreciated.

The word is "deprecated" and NI deprecating something doesn't stop it from working for another 20 years.

Yes, in fact it does. Controller Editor already doesn't support Rig Kontrol 3 and Kore, among other older NI hardware. Neither of these devices can be used without either the software or the Editor. So at some point you will have the choice of not being able to use new plug ins on your 15 year old PC and OS, or you will ditch the unsupported hardware.

Control surfaces like the Komplete SL, Linnstrument, Akai MPK, etc. etc. etc. that have internal presets that can be set up to use MIDI CCs etc. will not eventually die because their software is discontinued.

Neither will anything from Roli, because Seaboards and Blocks are both able to store and execute lots of code. My Lightpad, for example, will store any app I load into it. If Dashboard stopped working, I'd be stuck with whichever app I had loaded but that's OK because I always have the same app loaded. So get your facts straight if you want have a useful discussion.

Obfuscation again. One out of dozens of possible configurations might work for you, but pretending it's anything near the built in presets on the SL or Linnstrument is just bizarre.

None of that takes away from the value you get out of the Lightpad, but my point has been in this discussion clear, you should as a customer know what you're getting into, and again there are controllers that have more than limited use past software being developed for them.

You're just arguing to argue, the point is pretty straightforward

If it appears straightforward, that's because you are being simplisitic and only looking at one side of the argument. What appears straightforward to me is how completely wrong you are on pretty much every point you have made and I have provided solid evidence to refute each of them.

No you haven't, you've ignored my point and created strawmen to make yourself feel better.