KVR Audio

Image-Line · Post by **Image-Line** » Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:53 pm

mgw38 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:56 am From the user perspective, the obsolescence issue is a bit of a myth perpetuated by passionate Windows users.

I am not sure why you say that. It's not windows users that make this call. YouTube is full of 1000's of videos of Mac users with broken plugins and some hardware. How many legacy plugins still don't work on Catalina?

Image-Line · Post by **Image-Line** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:00 am

antic604 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:48 pm Perhaps ask Bitwig devs? Since v4 it runs Apple Silicon native and Rosetta2 plugins side by side

BTW Bitwig, had no choice to bridge VST plugins as they don't support Audio Units.

We will be working on an x86 <> ARM process bridge soon for a subsequent release.

Yorrrrrr · Post by **Yorrrrrr** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:05 am

Good job Image-Line. Ableton…this is embarrassing.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:22 am

Image-Line wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:00 am
antic604 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:48 pm Perhaps ask Bitwig devs? Since v4 it runs Apple Silicon native and Rosetta2 plugins side by side
BTW Bitwig, had no choice to bridge VST plugins as they don't support Audio Units.

We will be working on an x86 <> ARM process bridge soon for a subsequent release.

It's more like the bridging is already built in with the whole sandboxing that Biwtig does to plug ins in general.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:29 am

Image-Line wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:53 pm
mgw38 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:56 am From the user perspective, the obsolescence issue is a bit of a myth perpetuated by passionate Windows users.
I am not sure why you say that. It's not windows users that make this call. YouTube is full of 1000's of videos of Mac users with broken plugins and some hardware. How many legacy plugins still don't work on Catalina?

Because his own experience says otherwise, you could quote the whole post and your answer is right there.

Plus if you hang out here it's definitely not Mac users complaining about Mac OS breaking things, it's Windows users parroting this. Mac OS broke 32 bit plug in support first for sure; and Catalina, Big Sur, support is obviously stepping stones toward Apple Silicon support, that's transparent now.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:54 am

"How many legacy plugins still don't work on Catalina?"
I'm not burdened by 'legacy plugins', I wouldn't know. I ditched exactly zero plugins to run Catalina.

32-bit is obsolete on Catalina and moving forward, sure. I haven't used any in years, and all those I was using in say 2013 I could have updated back then but stuck with templates I had for convenience, to save time and effort. By the time five years later 32-bit was over for OSX I had quite moved on. "it's not windows users that..." bullshit, this is absolutely a windows users' trip, we see it all the time here.

"YouTube is full of 1000s of" blah blah. Really? The world is full of malcontents. I'd think we all recognized that complainers make quite a lot more noise than the people who get on with it..

Seens like a simple business calculation would have the face of a company eschew being a dick and trolling, promoting a non-issue that essentially insults the prospective user's intelligence.

mgw38 · Post by **mgw38** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:06 am

Image-Line wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:53 pm
mgw38 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:56 am From the user perspective, the obsolescence issue is a bit of a myth perpetuated by passionate Windows users.
I am not sure why you say that. It's not windows users that make this call. YouTube is full of 1000's of videos of Mac users with broken plugins and some hardware. How many legacy plugins still don't work on Catalina?

The Internet is full of people who make videos about a lot of things. You are looking at the spike of the Pareto distribution. The fast majority of users has no issues at all.

As I said, if a plugin breaks, you know that almost a year in advance of the actual MacOS release. If it is an important plugin you simply don't upgrade (most professionals work with older versions of MacOS anyway). Otherwise you move on to a different developer. There are dozens of options for pretty much everything.

Kudos to your Mac implementation, btw. It is really good.

Image-Line · Post by **Image-Line** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:17 am

machinesworking wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:29 am
Plus if you hang out here it's definitely not Mac users complaining about Mac OS breaking things

Being the DAW developer, we have to support 10,000's of plugins. macOS users are by far and away the most common entrants to Technical support with OS related plugin failures.

Every macOS update, waves of problems. Windows never (or almost never) does that FWIW.

mgw38 · Post by **mgw38** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:27 am

Image-Line wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:17 am Being the DAW developer, we have to support 10,000's of plugins. macOS users are by far and away the most common entrants to Technical support with OS related plugin failures.

Every macOS update, waves of problems. Windows never (or almost never) does that FWIW.

You asked for the average user's experience. I would expect that your experience differs because you only see the people who complain. Quite a few Mac users tend to expect that everything just works. Windows users tend to be a bit more accepting that sometimes things need tinkering. Just booting up my Windows system is a bit of an adventure every day.

machinesworking · Post by **machinesworking** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:46 am

Image-Line wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:17 am
machinesworking wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:29 am
Plus if you hang out here it's definitely not Mac users complaining about Mac OS breaking things
Being the DAW developer, we have to support 10,000's of plugins. macOS users are by far and away the most common entrants to Technical support with OS related plugin failures.

Every macOS update, waves of problems. Windows never (or almost never) does that FWIW.

Hmm? big surprise, you have 20+ years experience coding for Windows, and almost none with Mac OS. Guess what? Digital Performer is surprise surprise more stable with plug ins on Mac OS.... They ported to Windows about the same time you ported to Mac OS.

IMO you guys spent way too long being in the "Windows camp", and even announcing Apple Silicon Support you can't help but trot out old tropes. MOTU don't play that game, but if I were to point out that Windows users tend to post a lot about crashing plug ins and incompatibility in DP what's that going to say? Basically if you don't think there's a possibility it's bugs in your port, then you're never going to have a Mac OS version as stable as your Windows version, and if you continue to blame changes to the OS, it's just going to look like lazy coding to us as end users and the port won't do as well financially as you would like.

The fact is Apple hates workarounds, every detailed discussion on why Catalina or Big Sur etc. breaks something reveals in the end that it simply doesn't happen with companies that don't keep around deprecated code. So personally I have no issue tossing plug in developers that don't keep up, that's just good housekeeping to me.

After having to completely reinstall Windows 10 on my roommates computer because it has a "Disk 100% Full" bug that had zero good solutions, even from IT friends of mine who were Window experts, I have no admiration for Windows having massive amounts of legacy code, since I've never experienced any bug in Mac OS since OS X was introduced that had me reinstall the OS. My roomate isn't a power user at all either, just Office and Zoom. The fact that Windows can be corrupted at the OS level is insane to me, and I'm willing to put up with the loss of plug ins that haven't been updated to the latest GUI code.

pdxindy · Post by **pdxindy** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:30 am

Image-Line wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:53 pm
mgw38 wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:56 am From the user perspective, the obsolescence issue is a bit of a myth perpetuated by passionate Windows users.
I am not sure why you say that. It's not windows users that make this call. YouTube is full of 1000's of videos of Mac users with broken plugins and some hardware. How many legacy plugins still don't work on Catalina?

Not my experience. Every single plugin I was using before Catalina, I am still using on Catalina. I always wait some months after a new OS version comes out before updating and I never have a problem.

The real question though, is why you are spending your time on an anti-Apple tirade? You asked a loaded and manipulative question of Mac users, and now you are arguing when someone gave an answer you don't like. Are you here to pick a fight?

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:49 am

So is Harmor working on Mac yet?

himalaya · Post by **himalaya** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:52 am

pdxindy wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:35 am
Image-Line wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:27 pmI am wondering how Apple users are feeling about the constant obsolescence of their software. It seems every OS update breaks something, and every 10 years or so they completely change CPU architecture obsoleting whole ecosystems.
As a user, it's working great for me. And no, the software I use does not become obsolete. Today, I'm using the same software I've been using for some years and when I purchase one of the soon to be announced MBP's, I will still be using the same software.

And the change to ARM is fantastic! Great for us users.

Not great for all Mac users. For example, certain pro-level sample editors can no longer be installed on post-Sierra MacOS, thus requiring me to keep a separate partition to run some software on 'old' MacOS.
This greatly affects my workflow. But more worryingly, should my Mac die, causing me to buy a new one, my question is, will I be able to install say, Yosemite on a new partition? Definitely not great for all users.

Image-Line · Post by **Image-Line** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:16 pm

machinesworking wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:46 am Hmm? big surprise, you have 20+ years experience coding for Windows, and almost none with Mac OS.

The problems I am referring to are caused by the macOS updates not FL Studio.

One of our team used to develop compilers for macOS. I don't know what you think you know about our development team, but it's very different today than it was 5 years ago. We have more than quadrupled in size and macOS full stack experience is extensive. Most recently, we were pleased to welcome Angus Hewlett as CTO.

One thing that is true, macOS is certainly a developer hostile environment.

Image-Line · Post by **Image-Line** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:46 pm

aMUSEd wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:49 am So is Harmor working on Mac yet?

Yes. However we have stopped selling the VST version (all VST and AU plugins actually). Its all native only now.

FL Studio 20.8.4 Released inc. Apple Silicon Support