FL Studio 20.8.4 Released inc. Apple Silicon Support

[pdxindy]

The fact is. Apple OS updates break far more code than Windows updates. Often developers don't even know these problems are coming. Their software just stops working.

It's not like a new OS version just materializes one day. There are some months of developer and public betas before a new OS is released. That is plenty of time for developers to at least know something is broken.

Also, a developers software doesn't just magically stop working when there is an OS update. The user has to update to the new OS version. Any user serious about audio production is going to check with developers and/or on forums like KVR to see if the DAW(s) and plugins they depend on are working with the new OS. And if the software they depend on isn't yet working they don't update to the new OS version. I always wait a minimum of 4-6 months (often longer) before updating to a new OS version.

Apple really did an amazing job with Rosetta 2. So good it has lulled the customers into a sense of false security about what is happening on the development side. There is a lot of development man hours being burned and yet to be burned on this transition.

What will happen when Apple stops supporting Rosetta 2 will also be interesting to watch.

It is nearing two years we have known that Apple was gonna switch to their own ARM processors. Rosetta 2 will be around at least 3 years more. That is approx. 4.5 - 5 years for developers to complete the transition. That is plenty of time.

Anyhow, that's a developers perspective. Something that does not and should not concern the customers. Except that all this development went into supporting a platform change and not creating new products, features or experiences.

I get that a developer might feel frustration with the transition. However, speaking for myself as a user, there is no new product or feature that I want as much as I want a laptop that is quiet and doesn't get hot enough to cook breakfast on. As soon as the 16" Apple Silicon MBP is available to order, I'll be getting one.

At this point, almost all of the software I depend on is Apple Silicon native. I have NI Komplete but I wont be installing it on my new machine. I'm making a break with it. I don't use Kontakt or big sample libraries so it is easy for me to make that choice as I have a variety of other plugins to use.

If someone's work does depend on Kontakt, if I were them, I would go buy the fastest Intel Mac I could and be prepared to stay on that machine for years to come. Who knows what is gonna happen with NI!

[andypryce]

I find this very interesting, TBH.

Seems KVR can be a hostile place also

I agree,
These guys are making native M1 compatibility available for free and earlier than most developers (Cubase will probably charge for it adding it on 11.5 or 12 and Ableton nowhere to be seen for example) and have every right to complain like any of us do on these forums. They do not deserve this attitude.
PS: I am a Mac user and use FLS infrequently but I appreciate their openness about everything and their commitment.

[machinesworking]

I find this very interesting, TBH.

Seems KVR can be a hostile place also

I agree,
These guys are making native M1 compatibility available for free and earlier than most developers (Cubase will probably charge for it adding it on 11.5 or 12 and Ableton nowhere to be seen for example) and have every right to complain like any of us do on these forums. They do not deserve this attitude.
PS: I am a Mac user and use FLS infrequently but I appreciate their openness about everything and their commitment.

Most Mac DAW developers are Apple Silicon native.
Reaper, Logic, DP, Bitwig, Studio One, now FL Studio.

What's left is Cubase, Live, Reason, Pro Tools.

You're acting like this came out of the blue. This is the post that set off the discussion.

Send complaints to - 1 Apple Park Way, Cupertino, California.

One thing we are looking at is writing our own ARM <> Intel plugin bridge, similar to our 32 Bit bridge in FL Studio. But no ETA or promises on that yet.

I am wondering how Apple users are feeling about the constant obsolescence of their software. It seems every OS update breaks something, and every 10 years or so they completely change CPU architecture obsoleting whole ecosystems.

From a developers POV, they certainly take it for granted that developers will fix their messes.

Anyhow. M1 certainly has put the wind up Intel/AMD, and competition is a great thing. Onwards and upwards ...

FL Studio for years had a friendly but hostile joke about getting a PC when asked about a Mac version. I'm glad they've opened up to Mac development, but dammit if we need another overtly hostile developer at KVR towards the whole environment. Plus the point is, strange in the end of the day. Apple Silicon is an obvious end game scenario. Now that they're in control of the die, there's no reason to transition.

Think about it, IBM was losing the thermal wars to Intel, the G5 was an oven, and IBM could not make a mobile G5 chip to save their mothers lives. So Intel makes sense.

Intel is starting to lose their advantage to TSMC, and to AMD even, meanwhile Apple has the best thermal performance out there in their own chips. This transition makes even more sense.

I'm willing to bet most if not all deprecated code, and breaking of things that Apple has done in the last 5 years has been in order to pave the way for a smoother transition to Apple Silicon. Developers that changed to recommended API's when suggested to by Apple would have an easier time transitioning.

I've said this already to other people but I hope they're complaining as hard when Microsoft release their own Arm SOC, and they finally clean house to transition. because I can see that being just as big or even a bigger fiasco.

[FapFilter]

I've said this already to other people but I hope they're complaining as hard when Microsoft release their own Arm SOC, and they finally clean house to transition. because I can see that being just as big or even a bigger fiasco.

Of course they should do that. But in general, MS updates haven't been known for breaking working software as “frequently“ as Apple does.
In fact it is, at least in my opinion extremely rare that a new Windows versions will break old stuff. I'm on Win 7 and can run pretty much anything that is designed from Win XP (maybe even earlier) to Win 10 without problems.
As said, i don't have personal experience with Macs, but i see this happening pretty regularly with complaints on forums for seemingly pretty much every single major update.
Not that it will affect every piece of software every time, but it seems like everytime something will not work as expected anymore without doing at least tiny fixes.
And it's not that i'm getting enjoyment out of this, because this is happening to my “arch enemy“.
I couldn't care less which OS i use. I use the one that runs all the software i like and know well. Simple as that. I don't adore MS, i don't adore Apple. Linux is at least nice as it is community driven and won't cost you an arm and leg, but i wouldn't make them my religion either. And it doesn't run all the software i need (as doesn't OSX, but at least there are more alternatives), so i'm on Win

[pdxindy]

As said, i don't have personal experience with Macs, but i see this happening pretty regularly with complaints on forums for seemingly pretty much every single major update.
Not that it will affect every piece of software every time, but it seems like everytime something will not work as expected anymore without doing at least tiny fixes.

The answer with that is very simple. When a new OS update comes out, don't update right away. Following that approach, I have not had a single issue in years.

Nobody that depends on the computer for their work, whether audio or otherwise, should be updating the instant an OS is released. How Apple does things is well known and consistent, and it is easy to have no issues by acting accordingly. Fundamentally, there is no problem.

[chk071]

The answer with that is very simple. When a new OS update comes out, don't update right away. Following that approach, I have not had a single issue in years.

I don't believe anyone who says that he never had a single issue with his computer.

It just won't happen. And, I've used a Mac enough times in my life to be safe to say that it doesn't happen on Macs either (rather the opposite).

[FapFilter]

That's true.
Still there are many complaints from users who update anyway and this means additional work for the developers. Work that is usually not required on other platforms, so it might be a valid point from a developers POV.

Additionally, if i'm not mistaken, some new plugins won't work on anything older than a certain OSX version, which means that you might be in a dilemma if you want that certain plugin, but updating would mean that you can't run other stuff anymore

[pdxindy]

Seems KVR can be a hostile place also

...and have every right to complain like any of us do on these forums. They do not deserve this attitude.

The Image Line account asked for Apple users opinions. I wouldn't have replied in this thread if they hadn't. I only read the thread at all because of the mention of Apple Silicon support.

One can ask. "Hey Apple users, do you think Apple sucks?"
Or one can ask like IL did "Hey Apple users, how do you deal with the fact that Apple sucks?"

It is not an agreed upon fact that Apple sucks. The question was not an honest one, rather it was trying to solicit the desired responses.

Then IL made another declaration. "One thing that is true, macOS is certainly a developer hostile environment."

Agains stating something as a fact and putting words in every developers mouth when it is quite possible that other developers might disagree with that statement.

IL took a pushy and adversarial approach so it is no surprise that there was some push back.

[FapFilter]

One can ask. "Hey Apple users, do you think Apple sucks?"
Or one can ask like IL did "Hey Apple users, how do you deal with the fact that Apple sucks?

they literally worded it like that?
That would be not OK of course and highly unprofessional aswell, if really true.
Stating that someone thinks that something is a developer hostile environment might be true though, depending on how much troubleshooting and re-work every new OS release means for the developer

[pdxindy]

One can ask. "Hey Apple users, do you think Apple sucks?"
Or one can ask like IL did "Hey Apple users, how do you deal with the fact that Apple sucks?

they literally worded it like that?
That would be not OK of course and highly unprofessional aswell, if really true.
Stating that someone thinks that something is a developer hostile environment might be true though, depending on how much troubleshooting and re-work every new OS release means for the developer

no, they didn't literally say Apple sucks. The point is the structure of the question, not the word sucks which was just a quick paraphrase...

Later, IL came back with a more balanced post and said they didn't think Apple was actively hostile towards developers but that they prioritized consumers over developers. That seems like a fairly accurate characterization and is not putting conclusions in others mouths.

Plenty of developers don't appear to have a problem keeping up to date with the changes and as needed releasing their own updates promptly. RME had updated drivers for their interfaces out quite fast... including for interfaces they have not sold for years.

It's the developers with lots of legacy code that may have problems. For whatever set of reasons, they have not been able to keep their house in order. Who knows what will happen with Native Instruments for example.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Just read in this thread that Angus Hewlitt ended up as CTO of Image Line. Glad to hear that. Any chance of Image Line acquiring some of the abandoned FXPansion products?

Also, love how we have an Image Line rep here expressing opinions based on their professional first-hand experience with fanboys here sticking up for the platform and acting like they know more on the topic than the people actually doing it for a living. Where are Avid and Pace on native M1 support? How about Arturia and NI? How many months and months did porting their products cost U-he? And Image Line is getting dumped on for stating the obvious?

I'll be picking up one of the next round of MBPs for my very first Mac (first computer was an Apple II then PC since) so I'm excited about the M1 and beyond, but it's clear if you listen to cross-platform developers that Apple makes things very difficult for them in a way Windows does not.

[telecharge]

However, we recommend updating all AU plugins to Apple Silicon compliant as the bridging can cause issues in some cases.

What are some examples of the issues? Not trying to bait you here, but the list of third party native instruments (ha!) is quite short. Knowing the nature of the issues will help some of us decide if going native is worthwhile.

[FapFilter]

no, they didn't literally say Apple sucks. The point is the structure of the question, not the word sucks which was just a quick paraphrase...

Later, IL came back with a more balanced post and said they didn't think Apple was actively hostile towards developers but that they prioritized consumers over developers. That seems like a fairly accurate characterization and is not putting conclusions in others mouths.

well, it's difficult to judge how inappropriate their wording was, or if some people simply didn't like the fact, that someone said something not in total favor to Apple

Plenty of developers don't appear to have a problem keeping up to date with the changes and as needed releasing their own updates promptly. RME had updated drivers for their interfaces out quite fast... including for interfaces they have not sold for years.

Yes, but how “great“ is such a “feature“ that you more or less have to make your plugins compatible again for a developer in the first place?
Should they be thankful for that? Or isn't it nicer for them if they could concentrate on actual plugin development and refinments instead of being busy keeping their software running just because the next version of the operating system decides for no apparent reason that it can not run anymore?
I don't have anything against it when this happens during big transitions like from PPC to Intel and now to ARM, especially the latter seems to be handled exceptionally well by Apple, but not the other stuff that basically runs on the very same hardware, which seems to be just throwing sticks between the legs of the developers for no apparent reasons.

[machinesworking]

The answer with that is very simple. When a new OS update comes out, don't update right away. Following that approach, I have not had a single issue in years.

I don't believe anyone who says that he never had a single issue with his computer.

It just won't happen. And, I've used a Mac enough times in my life to be safe to say that it doesn't happen on Macs either (rather the opposite).

I've been under the impression that the whole thing boils down to user error. The whole Windows help desk joke about "the issue exists between the chair and the screen" etc. Windows 10 looks great to me, but recently my roommate who does almost nothing with her computer had a crippling bug, disk reading 100% full ins Task Manager when it's actually using only 15% of the drive, everything happening about 30x slower than it should. There was no solution to this, I spent days, went into the Windows shell, removed and did all kinds of fixes, dozens, suggested from Microsofts own forums, but in the end everything pointed to it being either an OS level bug or a dead HD. I installed a brand new SSD and Windows 10. Everything works perfectly, and in a deep test of the old drive there's nothing wrong. Windows can still be corrupted at the root level, this is the price you pay for layers of legacy support.

There is absolutely no good reason ever to reinstall Mac OS, people who do it are wasting their time or are being persnickety about "cleanliness", this simply isn't true with Windows, and again, IMO it's due to decades and decades of legacy support, the OS can literally "slow down", become sluggish, from use. There's for too many holes in the OS. When they do transition to their own SOC I hope they use it as a chance to clean house, because it's a great OS, IMO hindered by having to support garbage code from 20 years ago.

So IMO the reason developers complain about Mac OS is the reason Mac OS doesn't experience issues that Window still has to deal with in 2021.

[machine_spirit]

they literally worded it like that?

No they didn't, not in this thread at least. However they didn't really deliver their argument/stance in a way one perhaps would expect from a developer either, which i think is what actually bothers a couple here (doesn't bother me though, i think it was balanced/justified). Obviously the developer have enough data themselves to know which OS brings them the most trouble.