ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[BONES]

Well, that's an ironic question considering you were insistent that that sort of thing was 'common'

Well, I wasn't including Serial interface devices, either, and FireWire was never, ever common, so it pretty much excludes itself.

Anyway, its completely irrelevant as to why RME do continue to support it, they do, and its not common.

But it is, it's extremely common. You've given just one example, which only works if I'd said that everybody does it. To prove it uncommon, you are going to have to provide a lot more than you have. At the very least, you'll need to provide more than I have (which is more than .

Beyond that, of course, you'll still need to show how that justifies spending 10 times as much money, which was the actual issue. Because, as I've shown, you could get dudded half-a-dozen times and still be ahead.

Well, Im 'saying stuff' that can be confirmed to a visit to the appropriate website. You're 'saying stuff' that's just your opinion.

What appropriate website? You've not even given us a single product example to go and check up on. You just said "tons of devices" which doesn't give us anything to look for. Even then, it's hard to know because even though you can't find drivers for the MIDIsport 1x1 by navigating through the site menus, they are still there is you do a search.

Stop moving the goalposts. Whether it works for you or not is irrelevant to the point; ithey've not written new drivers since 2013 and that's not 'current support'.

Don't be f**king ridiculous. If the drivers still work, why would they update them? Seriously, that's just plain f**king dumb. But, as you can see here, M-Audio still consider it a currently supported device -

WhyterabbitIsFullofShit.jpg

The evidence says there have been no drivers since 2013.

Correct. As the product still works as it should, no new drivers have been required. As I've said, that's the beauty of Windows - if you don't need to take advantage of new features in new versions of Windows, you don't need to update your drivers all the time. It's a beautiful thing.

But do feel free to tie yourself in knots avoiding the fact that not providing drivers for a device for 8 years doesnt count as 'current support.'

You can't possibly be this stupid, can you? The f**king thing works, that's all that f**king matters. Unless you can explain how renaming the driver to "Windows 10" and changing the date to 2016 (or 2021 if you like) would make anything actually work better, in which case I shall bow to your superior knowledge and understanding.

Firstly, that's provably not true for all Windows device drivers.

Then prove it. Give me an example. I've certainly never had to go looking for Windows 10 drivers for any of my stuff.

I was specifically responding to your statement ' I can still get current drivers for it' when those drivers are more than a decade old.

"Current" means ones that work, not ones that were published today. As long as you can install that driver on the current, up to date version of your OS and it allows that device to function as it should, then it is "current". The date it was created or modified or published is completely and utterly irrelevant.

2009 is not 'current'.

It is if there's not a 2010 one and it works. e.g. The current version of Autodesk Combustion is Combustion 2008 and unless/until someone makes a newer version, it will remain the current version. As usual, you want to talk in abstractions but we live in the real world and, in the real world, if it works it is all you need.

You're using old drivers that still work

No, I'm using current drivers, the absolute newest ones available, and the device in question works exactly as it did in Windows 98SE when I bought it. We're still using the cable it came with, too, because even the interface is still current and supported. Meanwhile, no matter how up to date your precious RME drivers are, they don't allow you to plug your FireWire device into any modern computer, do they? That makes them measurably less useful in 2021 than M-Audio's driver from 2013. Now that's real irony and it doesn't half make me laugh!

[BONES]

new divergently niche products, standstill in their innovations, and resale of some of those big acquisitions.

Direct contradiction here. You acknowledge new products, which you weirdly describe as "divergent", then accuse them of a lack of new innovation. Lumi Keys isn't divergent at all, it's an expansion of the Blocks ecosystem, as well as having a new, standalone market. It's compatible with Roli's Studio Player app, which is also available as a VSTi. That seems to me like the very opposite of a "divergent" product, doesn't it to you?

[digitalboytn]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

[machinesworking]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

The topic of this one kinda makes it destined to turn sour. People love Roli, and it’s not looking good for the company. So people are literally attempting to say silly things like deprecated software is just dandy. You’re going to have conflict there.

[poonna]

BONES, I'm trying to not take side here. I might be wrong but it seems to me you're trying not to concede even a single point, when it's OK to be partially right, partially wrong. Everyone does it all the time. I do it all the time.

I think you're probably right about the worth of paying premium for support alone. It might be more cost-effective to just buy new stuff when the old ones stop working. But there might be some other reasons for a person to buy higher price products, too, not just support. Sometimes the features are just right, sometimes the specs. Well, there's brand loyalty, too, but that's probably not the best reason to buy something.

Price notwithstanding, the thing about "support" is that "the manufacturer" that makes the product still provides official support on all major platforms. If it happens to still be usable on one platforms, but not the other major platforms (macOS in this case), then it's no longer "supported" by "the manufacturer". That Microsoft provides backward compatibility does not imply the product is still supported by the manufacturer. The company may still list the current version of Windows because it happens to work, at the mercy of Microsoft. You said it yourself that "Windows 7 drivers for anything will work with Windows 10 and *probably* Windows 11, too". The word "probably" provides a layer of uncertainty there. If Microsoft decides to ditch backward compatibility, and the manufacturer does not release a new driver, then that's the end of it. As there's no driver for the new Mac, it might hint that there would be no driver for a future version of Windows, too. You might say that it's less likely that will happen to Windows, and I would agree. There's uncertainty still.

M-Audio products you show don't list MacOS 11 and 12. You might say that it's stupid to use MacOS. Whether that's true or not is not the point here, isn't it? (I think it's an opinion, though, as there are many other reasons to use a Mac for.) To not support current MacOS implies the end of support by the manufacturer for the products. As stated on M-Audio website itself on the compatibility table, "Please be aware: If you do not see your product listed in this article, it is not officially supported for use with macOS Big Sur", that implies there are products that are unsupported, mostly legacy ones. Therefore, some of your listed products are not officially supported, even though still working on Windows.

Regarding Firewire interface, the hardware interface becoming obsolete is out of the manufacturer's control. As long as they provide a current driver for all major current OSes (Windows & Mac), it's still supported. If one day Firewire doesn't work on a new platform at all, even with adapter, then they "can't" provide support anymore, not that they "don't". And this is a bit nitpicking in my opinion, as there are a lot other different types of interfaces by RME.

That's why when a company explicitly provides support for legacy products, it's not common and people talk about it. You might argue that there's nothing permanent, and the company might stop providing support at one point or just went out of business somehow. That's certainly possible (as with anything), but still there's higher probability (than unsupported products) that they will still be able to use their products on future platforms.

The keywords here for me is "changing", "uncertainty", and "probability". Manufacturers' support increases the "probability" for the product to work under the "uncertainty" of constantly "changing" states of computing platforms. There's no 100% guarantee for anything, but higher probability is what we strive for.

In summary:

1. Support here means supported by the manufacturers, and not by chance by the OS companies.
2. IMO, a product with no drivers for current major OSes is considered unsupported by the manufacturer in general.
3. It's good that the products still work for you on Windows. I'm on Windows, too. The day might come that, though, that if Microsoft switches to ARM or anything, they might not work on that platform, either.
4. Whether it's worth it to pay higher price is up for debate, but RME's reputation is not only about the long-term support. They are also among the highest performance at the lowest latency. It might be important for some, and pointless for others.

Anyway, I apologize if my comment offends you and I'm truly sorry if it looks that way. I really, really don't want to offend anyone. It's certainly not my intention, and I'm trying my best to get my points across.

[whyterabbyt]

blah blah misdirect handwave black is white because i say it is im so clever blah blah stupid bullshit reference to something that contradicts what i say it does blah blah black is white

yawn.

[rasmusklump]

With none of the interfaces Bones mentioned I can get such a big track count with such a low latency at the same time as with my RME interfaces (the ones I tried and many more). That alone is worth the price for me. And in addition I don't have to worry about future OS changes as I know there will be driver support soon after.
And what's with the extra software like Digicheck with multitrack recording features RME provide for all of their Interfaces? To make the great new totalmix work even with very old hardware?

[Sinisterbr]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

The topic of this one kinda makes it destined to turn sour. People love Roli, and it’s not looking good for the company. So people are literally attempting to say silly things like deprecated software is just dandy. You’re going to have conflict there.

And I think this thread is drifting way off-topic with that.

[pdxindy]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

The topic of this one kinda makes it destined to turn sour. People love Roli, and it’s not looking good for the company. So people are literally attempting to say silly things like deprecated software is just dandy. You’re going to have conflict there.

Either way, Roli is toast... the body just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

[machinesworking]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

The topic of this one kinda makes it destined to turn sour. People love Roli, and it’s not looking good for the company. So people are literally attempting to say silly things like deprecated software is just dandy. You’re going to have conflict there.

Either way, Roli is toast... the body just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

The only thing good about this is as it's a company and not a product line for a company, we as end users have a choice on what to do with our Roli gear. I have a Seaboard Block, Equator 2, Geist, Cypher and Strobe. I have enough gear without these devices so I think I'm going to sell them soon.

I get why someone would be fine keeping them but again, I've succumbed to GAS enough that removing them from my setup isn't a loss to speak of, and it takes out any disappointment waiting for Equator to go Apple Silicon and the company folding etc.

[Ploki]

One thing i noticed with M1 specifically is that i don't change my buffer anymore - i keep it at 64 throughout, even when track counts reach 200+.
Partially because it can handle it (esp when running native sessions), partially because increasing buffer size doesn't do much - couple of more plugins, but not nearly as dramatic as intel macs.
Wonder if it has anything to do with how it handles RAM

[pdxindy]

One thing i noticed with M1 specifically is that i don't change my buffer anymore - i keep it at 64 throughout, even when track counts reach 200+.
Partially because it can handle it (esp when running native sessions), partially because increasing buffer size doesn't do much - couple of more plugins, but not nearly as dramatic as intel macs.
Wonder if it has anything to do with how it handles RAM

One of the bonuses of the M1 macs! Looking forward to that!!

[Double Tap]

One thing i noticed with M1 specifically is that i don't change my buffer anymore - i keep it at 64 throughout, even when track counts reach 200+.
Partially because it can handle it (esp when running native sessions), partially because increasing buffer size doesn't do much - couple of more plugins, but not nearly as dramatic as intel macs.
Wonder if it has anything to do with how it handles RAM

.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I've not experimented much with the settings but even using Live via Rosetta, the buffer doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

[Dasheesh]

Why do these threads always have to turn into an argument ?

1: they are defending their interests (products).

2: a lot of nerds are synthesists, and nerds like to be right more then anything.

3: they're bored.

[elxsound]

One thing i noticed with M1 specifically is that i don't change my buffer anymore - i keep it at 64 throughout, even when track counts reach 200+.
Partially because it can handle it (esp when running native sessions), partially because increasing buffer size doesn't do much - couple of more plugins, but not nearly as dramatic as intel macs.
Wonder if it has anything to do with how it handles RAM

.
Yeah I've noticed that too. I've not experimented much with the settings but even using Live via Rosetta, the buffer doesn't seem to make a lot of difference.

Damn. I don't like either one of you two right now. I was happily ignoring the M1 Macs.

I guess now I have to see if there's anything I want from 9/14 announcement.