FL Studio 20.8.4 Released inc. Apple Silicon Support

[pdxindy]

Basically for a plug in developer it's a similar level of competition that DAW developer experiences with Logic. So I think it's a fair comparison.

The other difference is... If I used FL Studio and used their mastering limiter, I can still easily buy and use a similar plugin as well. It is less of a one or the other situation.

Here on KVR, there are people who have a bunch of DAW's, but how many people do that? I have a DAW I am happy with so I'm not interested to buy a different DAW.

[machinesworking]

Basically for a plug in developer it's a similar level of competition that DAW developer experiences with Logic. So I think it's a fair comparison.

Image-Line is not nearly as dominant in the DAW market as Apple is in audio in general though. As in, the OS market is almost split into two halves while the DAW market has a bunch of major players for plugin developers to focus on if they want to. Sure, these plugin developers still have to deal with the Microsoft/Apple divide too but that isn't Image-Lines fault or within their control.

I'm not getting your post at all. FL Studio is easily competitive with Logic in terms of sales, those two, Pro Tools and Live are arguably the most popular DAWs out there, and a huge amount of people will own a "fun" DAW like FL or Live along with a "workhorse" DAW like Logic or Pro tools.

[machine_spirit]

FL Studio is easily competitive with Logic

You're separating Logic from Apple here which you really can't. Honestly this idea that Image-Line is in a similar position relative to plugin developers, that Apple is relative to DAW developers - is just ridiculous. Not in quality but in quantity/degree. Yes i'm aware that Image-Line made that argument themselves. Rather curious that they engage in a discussion like this in their own release thread of an update where the main feature is "Apple Silicon Support" but i guess they just got pulled into it...

[apoclypse]

FL Studio is easily competitive with Logic

You're separating Logic from Apple here which you really can't. Honestly this idea that Image-Line is in a similar position relative to plugin developers, that Apple is relative to DAW developers - is just ridiculous. Not in quality but in quantity/degree. Yes i'm aware that Image-Line made that argument themselves. Rather curious that they engage in a discussion like this in their own release thread of an update where the main feature is "Apple Silicon Support" but i guess they just got pulled into it...

They didn't just engage, they started the conversation. They could have just announced Apple support but instead decided to make a commentary on Apple development. They also made the argument about Apple having an unfair advantage. They didn't get pulled into anything they literally instigated it.

That sad part is by doing that no one is actually talking about the update itself.

[Image-Line]

but instead decided to make a commentary on Apple development. They also made the argument about Apple having an unfair advantage.

Usually people are interested in the perspective of developers on the industry. Unfortunately negative comments about Apple seem to trigger a lot of people. While on the other hand you can bash Microsoft all day and get only nods.

Anyhow, the next impending crunch-point for macOS users will be the removal of OpenGL support. This will certainly kill all remaining legacy plugins that work now under Rosetta 2.

Which comes first is open to question.

That sad part is by doing that no one is actually talking about the update itself.

"There is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about"
Oscar Wilde

Well you could start and let us know what you liked

We just released a tutorial for the Visualizer feature

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53jZTZYFrpY

[FapFilter]

Just realized that Angus is now at Image Line.
I'm happy for both!

Would prefer if they'd continue support their VST plugins again (if only for easier MSEG/LFO speed changes ) but i'm sure it will mean good stuff for FL Studio users

[machine_spirit]

The other difference is... If I used FL Studio and used their mastering limiter, I can still easily buy and use a similar plugin as well. It is less of a one or the other situation.

Here on KVR, there are people who have a bunch of DAW's, but how many people do that? I have a DAW I am happy with so I'm not interested to buy a different DAW.

Good point. Surprisingly complex topic honestly.

They didn't just engage, they started the conversation. They could have just announced Apple support but instead decided to make a commentary on Apple development. They also made the argument about Apple having an unfair advantage. They didn't get pulled into anything they literally instigated it.

IMO nothing they wrote justified the response (where IMO the pulling started) that came from some posters, but i can see how others could disagree.

[pdxindy]

They didn't just engage, they started the conversation. They could have just announced Apple support but instead decided to make a commentary on Apple development. They also made the argument about Apple having an unfair advantage. They didn't get pulled into anything they literally instigated it.

They asked for Apple users input and then argued with peoples replies. And finally, basically called anyone who doesn't agree with them an Apple fanboy. That argument gets brought up so many times, it is really tedious.

The anti-Apple tirades never end with Apple, as Apple users almost always become the target of attacks too. I couldn't count the number of times I've been called names on KVR because I happen to use Apple products. You must be a fanboy, brainwashed by their marketing, blah blah blah.

Much of the world is busy creating various 'us' vs 'them' scenarios and then the us becomes good and smart and the them becomes bad and stupid and war ensues. The US is crazed these days. If you disagree with some criticism of any camp, you must then be in that camp. You are a traitor if you have any sort of nuanced viewpoint. You must be 100% against 'them' (whichever them it happens to be) at all times or you are betraying the cause. It is frightening how extreme it has become.

[Image-Line]

They asked for Apple users input and then argued with peoples replies. And finally, basically called anyone who doesn't agree with them an Apple fanboy. That argument gets brought up so many times, it is really tedious.

We never called anyone a fanboy (these are your words). Please don't try to paint us into that corner.

We defended our position that - Developing for Apple is a hostile environment (compared to Microsoft) because Apple (often) breaks your code and you never know when and where it's going to happen.

The discussion that followed is hardly an argument and seems like a robust exchange of opinions and points of view.

If anything, we are trying to help people understand why macOS solutions are not always quick to arrive. Its difficult.

As noted earlier. No good comes from users personally identifying with corporations. It does nothing other than to allow them to get away with long-term behaviour that benefits no-one.

[machinesworking]

Anyhow, the next impending crunch-point for macOS users will be the removal of OpenGL support. This will certainly kill all remaining legacy plugins that work now under Rosetta 2.

Great example. Apple deprecated OpenGL and strongly suggested people use Metal over three years ago now. How much time do they need to give? It’s just insane to me that we’re even talking about something that was deprecated three years ago as a point of contention, as a reason to be upset or concerned?

So Rosetta 2 is required to work for at least the next 4 years, that gives openGL Rosetta 7 years since announced as deprecated, yet we’re mentioning it as another death blow from Apple.

[Image-Line]

Great example. Apple deprecated OpenGL and strongly suggested people use Metal over three years ago now. ... yet we’re mentioning it as another death blow from Apple.

The point was. When OpenGL is removed this will end-of-life any code not under active development. This is what we refer to as "bit-rot" in the industry.

It is a death-blow for code. Who said anything about Apple? Apple will do just fine with or without legacy code.

[mgw38]

OpenGL is a bad example because that is an ancient technology long overdue for being deprecated. It was groundbreaking when we used it on SGI workstations in the 90s but a lot has happened in computer graphics over the last 25 years. Even NVidia is recommending switching to Vulkan. When OpenGL was originally developed it was completely inconceivable that GPUs could do what they do today. OpenGL was never meant to work for the types of graphics architectures we use today.

[machinesworking]

Great example. Apple deprecated OpenGL and strongly suggested people use Metal over three years ago now. ... yet we’re mentioning it as another death blow from Apple.

The point was. When OpenGL is removed this will end-of-life any code not under active development. This is what we refer to as "bit-rot" in the industry.

It is a death-blow for code. Who said anything about Apple? Apple will do just fine with or without legacy code.

Check what I wrote again. You’re misreading from as for…

Plus who on earth thinks that an entirely new chip design should require the OS to support deprecated frameworks and code made for the previous platform?

Everyone realizes that old unsupported code in the long run is not going to make it to Apple Silicon. That’s not an issue to anyone who remains rational about this.

This is a new framework, Apple is playing an end game move here. We all can either go on the ride or drop off. Complaining about it though is just, odd. Would it be better if Apple stuck with thermally inferior Intel chips to keep developers happy? personally I don’t agree with that at all. I’m looking forward to the competition that the “pro” versions of the chips bring, which will of course drive Intel and AMD forward as well..

[pdxindy]

As noted earlier. No good comes from users personally identifying with corporations. It does nothing other than to allow them to get away with long-term behaviour that benefits no-one.

That is you calling people fanboys (again)... as if disagreeing with you automatically means people are personally identifying with corporations (basic definition of fanboy).

Previously you also said this: "They are not people or your friends - no matter how warm and friendly your iPhone or M1 macbook feels, and no good comes of it when you do."

You are speaking to people you don't know, have no idea of their experience and background, about complex subjects, and when someone doesn't completely agree with you, you start speaking down to them as if they are some brainwashed Apple minion. It's condescending.

[machinesworking]

As noted earlier. No good comes from users personally identifying with corporations. It does nothing other than to allow them to get away with long-term behaviour that benefits no-one.

That is you calling people fanboys (again)... as if disagreeing with you automatically means people are personally identifying with corporations (basic definition of fanboy).

Previously you also said this: "They are not people or your friends - no matter how warm and friendly your iPhone or M1 macbook feels, and no good comes of it when you do."

You are speaking to people you don't know, have no idea of their experience and background, about complex subjects, and when someone doesn't completely agree with you, you start speaking down to them as if they are some brainwashed Apple minion. It's condescending.

It's a straw man argument. I don't think people do it because they're insincere, it's just a lazy way of propping up your argument, one of the main fallacies in debate that gets ignored all of the time.

You insinuate that anyone that disagrees with any point made about a topic is possibly a blind to the truth™ fan of a corperation etc. instead of talking about the actual points being made. Classic straw man.

It's generally not worth pointing out IMO because most people have already picked a "side" and aren't interested in sticking to the subject of discussion. That said all in all Image-Line guy has been pretty good here, besides that passive aggressive attempt at belittling the counter argument to some of the unbacked up by logic rhetoric he's promoting.