"It's all digital"® and precision®♪♪... there's no diferences....

Anything about MUSIC but doesn't fit into the forums above.
KVRist
430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:26 am

copying from another topic....

...an.... opinion....
Digital audio also, although being more precise it actually probably suffers more from alignment and phase issues then hardware/analog does with all it's variations, it's my opinion, others have theirs.

I can even share that i hear diferences between having a plugin zero'ed/nulled, bypassed, turned off, or even removed from project in most cases... is it a latency issue mostly? most likely... latency that messes up phase between channels and plugin chains? also likely....
It's all digital but press "restrict delay compensacion" option in cubase if you have it and see if it sounds the same as bypassing plugins or turning off(less diferences), to me it doesn't...

others have gone into explaining some of this, maybe someday i'll get into more deep study about it but here's a few llinks, notsharing actually, might do another topic to not derail this....

Summing it up, exporting probably also has a DAW doing the same processes and errors that's why what i hear in cubase is usually diferent then what's exported, even if "all digital®"... my opinion..


i personally and refer again (personally) in most experiences i've done, for some reason usually prefer to export in 44.1khz to a project exported in 96 khz, it also sound diferent and i prefer 44.1khz, i also prefer 44.1khz to 48 most times.

KVRist

Topic Starter

430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:34 am

Links for discussion, not sure how much i'll attend to it........

bitrates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCwIsT0X8M

exporting issues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGNgWkIKrMU

It's all digital and precise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uyrvW66X7U

a lot more to be said probably, for better or worse ♪♫☼►◄↕

KVRAF
22788 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:19 am

tasty tatsyn wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:26 am
i hear diferences between having a plugin zero'ed/nulled, bypassed, turned off, or even removed from project in most cases... is it a latency issue mostly? most likely... latency that messes up phase between channels and plugin chains? also likely....
It's all digital but press "restrict delay compensacion" option in cubase if you have it and see if it sounds the same as bypassing plugins or turning off(less diferences), to me it doesn't...
"mostly" I can't say. It certainly can be.
Cubase with that turned off, I checked it once and it was a nightmare. The amount of difference here render to render owing to the nature of MIDI and latency is frequently significant without getting into this. I don't do long chains of FX, and I do almost no parallel processing or double printing as it were, unless I want sum and difference and stuff
You're basically not wrong.

KVRist

Topic Starter

430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:31 pm

I agree, exporting is just another process in wich "Digital witchcraft" might happen, what i know is that an exported project usually sounds diferent that what i hear while working in the project on cubase, most times not better.


Short version of a couple videos about phase and other issues inside a DAW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FkQvlLjSK0

KVRist

Topic Starter

430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm

Longer version....
On this one one can see the phase issues as sends and more FX's are added to the project, one can ask himself what happens when we have ex: >5 synths +X samplers +Y Sends +Z groups, etc, etc....

All with diferent latencys, using diferent Cores, Memorys, etc, etc.

ARe DAW's and VST's amazing, yes!
Perfect? hmmmmmmm ?! "sorry i didn't understand the question"® ^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKJABoSZPqc
Last edited by tasty tatsyn on Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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KVRAF
1905 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:49 pm

tasty tatsyn wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:31 pm
I agree, exporting is just another process in wich "Digital witchcraft" might happen, what i know is that an exported project usually sounds diferent that what i hear while working in the project on cubase, most times not better.
Perform a null render to prove it. With the test performed correctly, I would expect Cubase to fully cancel exported audio when loaded back in.

If audio really is sounding different when played outside of the DAW then it could be down to media player settings or processing options enabled in your OS and/or related to your audio chip/interface. Export settings can also impact on the perceived quality of the resultant audio file.

Also take into account offline rendering settings for certain plugins - which will result in a different sounding render if these are different to your online settings.

In addition to this, when synth plugins are live then they might have internal processing applied that will make each note subtly different - additional processing will add to this effect. Once you have rendered to an audio file, you will hear exactly the same audio each time it is played. For example, a "random" sequence is no longer random once printed. You might be noticing such differences and to them, attributing some value pertaining to loss of "quality" - whereas there has been no real loss.

KVRist

Topic Starter

430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:54 pm

I did the null test on the longer version, although Cubase is nulling it probably by correcting it you can see the phase oscillating after a certain amount of inserts and sends.

With the synth, it's always the same note on a defaut patch ;)
with no modulations or velocity variations
an 8 bar C1 note

And yes, the media players also make it sound diferent due to processes and eventually processing +eq's + video/generatives, etc but it's not the only cause imo

User avatar
KVRAF
1905 posts since 4 May, 2012

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:33 pm

I wouldn't expect exported audio to null online audio generated by plugin synths, especially with additional processing. There are so many factors at play, even if you've bounced all your audio so it is no longer online: This might print, for example, free running oscillators and any randomisation but if you have processing effects still running, they could introduce differences. Even in the case of a simple synth with a phase locked oscillator playing the same note, unmodulated and generating just a sine wave - you don't know how the audio is being generated internally.

I wouldn't assume that it would or should sound exactly the same every time - and I don't think it matters too much when it comes to producing audio for music. What does matter is that you are establishing phase coherence by the end of each stage of production. So you might want to bounce all your audio before starting to mix, for example.

When you add parallel processing to the mix, with the potential for introducing fractional delays - aside from fixed plugin latency (which should be measured accurate to 1 sample), then you will be further increasing the chance for the introduction of phase issues.

It really depends on what you are doing with these inserts and sends as to how you are rotating and warping the phase of a signal, along with, possibly, introducing cross and inter-modulation.

KVRist

Topic Starter

430 posts since 19 Jun, 2016

Post Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:15 pm

Unaspected wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:33 pm
.........

It really depends on what you are doing with these inserts and sends as to how you are rotating and warping the phase of a signal, along with, possibly, introducing cross and inter-modulation.
;) everything effects everything ^^ ;) some things more then others

Also agree doesn't dictate the end result although it influences it, and nice tips.

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