EQs and difference in weight and transient

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
KVRAF
3371 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:03 am

In filter designs, "steepness" pretty much equals "more phase smearing". That's definitely how it works with analog eq designs. If you want to analyze your EQs characteristics, then you should be able to move the phase issues to spots where they are less problematic. I suggest just using your ears to the max though since every design is gonna do something to your phase. Linear phase stuff has issues in the low end caused by lining up the bins, but those issues become less problematic the higher in the spectrum you go. I find mild curves in a standard eq design to be good enough for general tone shaping.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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KVRian
1313 posts since 11 Apr, 2008

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:07 am

Ploki wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:34 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:53 am
Well, it's more than just that.
I don't want to quote FabienTDR here without his permission but there's a fresh topic on another forum where he's explaining more precisely how LP filters work and what they do. Topic name is " Linear phase pre-ringing: Does it effect all frequencies?" for anyone interested.
Which section is it under?
Mastering Forum
Beware! The software discussed in this topic has unacceptable aliasing at -386dBTP but it can be fixed by changing the sample rate to 12Bit

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KVRAF
5139 posts since 15 Dec, 2011 from Bucharest, Romania

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:08 am

Ploki wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:34 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:53 am
Well, it's more than just that.
I don't want to quote FabienTDR here without his permission but there's a fresh topic on another forum where he's explaining more precisely how LP filters work and what they do. Topic name is " Linear phase pre-ringing: Does it effect all frequencies?" for anyone interested.
Which section is it under?
It's on GS:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/masteri ... ncies.html

KVRian
723 posts since 21 Sep, 2008

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:07 pm

A lot of the EQ's perceived tonal quality relates to the way its control laws are mapped.
For example, some EQs not only boost a specific range but would add overall gain. Parametric EQs may or may not have gain/Q compensation. Starting Q values are different. Gain ranges are different—all that even not considering saturation.

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KVRAF
1571 posts since 10 Jul, 2008 from Orbit Sol III

Post Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:07 pm

Ploki wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:21 am
pixel85 wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:44 am
CrystalWizard wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:27 pm
As stated preringing with linear phase eq is at present unavoidable. i'd be happy if someone proves me wrong.
I'm just reading a topic on gears**** (forbidden word! ;) ) and it seems that pre-ringing can be avoided in certain cases. It all depends on what filter, what frequency and what signal is processed.

This could explain why in my test I couldn't hear it.

Fabien from TDR is of course the best knowledge compendium in that matter :)
Avoided =! below significant audible threshold. If you use gentle filtering and restrained gain then of course, it will ring less - but in that case, there would also be much less phase distortion with a minimal phase EQ.
It's pretty corelated.
Neither phase distortion nor pre-ringing is extra-problematic when using 6dB/8ve filters and +/-3dB gain.
When you start doing 24dB and 12dB +/- you get either peaks and smearing, or audible preringing.
Yes, i could be more specific. It can be avoided in the sense you can use it in ways that the prering will not be noticable.
gadgets an gizmos...make noise
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KVRian
771 posts since 28 Jul, 2006

Post Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:41 am

heavymetalmixer wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:20 am
fabaessa wrote:
Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:33 am
. . . I Love TDR products but, to me, sound like the free nova introduce so sort of saturation (I could be completely wrong about it). I'll test it as an simple EQ like the others . . .
1) You need to check you're not using Precise + nor Insane + as those do introduce saturation. Use Precise, Insane or even Eco.

2) TDR NOVA uses oversampling to reduce Aliasing for the entire plugin, and this results in a slightly darker sound.
Why would oversampling create a darker sound?

Does nova have per band saturation?

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KVRer
9 posts since 8 Jul, 2019

Post Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:06 am

briefcasemanx wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:41 am
Why would oversampling create a darker sound?
I'll take a guess here. The aliased harmonics above nyquist fold back from the top frequency, not the bottom, so that puts more weight at the higher end of the frequency spectrum, in general.

With oversampling, ideally, you would eliminate that harmonic foldback for a cleaner sound that, maybe, subjectively would sound darker to someone.

KVRAF
4575 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Post Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:15 am

eq filters are compressors. some eq's allow you to control the compression of the filter. linear phase means all the filters compress at the same time, in an rms style.

v1o
KVRAF
2916 posts since 2 Oct, 2004

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:04 am

Dasheesh wrote:
Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:15 am
eq filters are compressors. some eq's allow you to control the compression of the filter. linear phase means all the filters compress at the same time, in an rms style.
I just learnt something new here. I thought EQs were just frequency dependent volume controls.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2

KVRAF
6741 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:18 am

Ploki wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:14 am
there's no linear phase EQ without pre-riniging
Indeed. Not even an analogue one.

https://youtu.be/eSyCuuSzuE4

KVRAF
4575 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:04 pm

good chance you have better speakers then me at this point, I've down graded over the years as I've become less important, but this is my personal fav. https://lvcaudio.com/plugins/toned-max/

the blessing and the curse of digital is dead space. absolute silence. before computers the only place in the universe silence existed was in a vacuum. that doesn't make digital better, it makes it less musical imo. I own 60 minute cds i bough that are 3 decibels above silence. we were experimenting with the that new space called silence. silence is boring. noise is musical.

KVRAF
4575 posts since 22 Nov, 2012

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:13 pm

there are a few imbedded pieces of advice from famous respected musicians that I hold onto.

1: digital is too clean, and gives your mind no where for interpretation and imagination.

2: when you meet someone who is enthused by sound, it's the quiet sounds they are enthused by.

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KVRAF
4313 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:43 pm

The best advice anyone can get is, whoever you listen to, please don't listen to arguments like those Dasheesh is making, because they cheapen discourse and add nothing of substance to the conversation.

Also, EQ filters are not a compressor lol
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KVRAF
3984 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder

Post Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:04 pm

The original "ah ha!" moment for me was when I realised EQs actually use phase shift + phase cancellation to perform said "frequency dependent" gain changes. That kinda blew my mind when it first dawned on me.

https://ethanwiner.com/EQPhase.html

EQs are compressors? Oh boy....

KVRist
250 posts since 5 Jul, 2004

Post Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:45 am

if you have one good preamp emulation you can use one or 2 with a clean eq in the middle , it should give you a more "similar" sound to some hardware eq. don t apply much gain if any at all on preamps , depend the color after but it its just for the transformers , opamps ect emulation, you can have clean eq that sound as sweet as nebula like this

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