Best MPE controller?

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20494 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:19 pm

BONES wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:55 pm
That's not what I saw in the video. What I saw was that you control the portamento of one note with the previous key, so you need to be thinking about what two fingers are doing at once, which to me seems a lot harder than a bit of Glide. In the end, though, it's really just what you can do with a pitch-bend wheel, without having to use a pitch-bend wheel.
You are still not understanding what is going on with the Osmose. And since you will never buy one, it doesn't matter if you do. :hihi:

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:29 pm

If it's anything like Linnstrument or Continuum, I will never so much as see one. But I understand what's going on - the further you depress the last key, the slower the portamento is, such that it doesn't reach the correct pitch until you release the previous key entirely. Unless he was explaining it wrong and failing to demonstrate it properly, I know exactly how it works.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
20494 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:19 am


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zerocrossing
KVRAF
11392 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 am

machinesworking wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:38 pm
BONES wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:50 pm
What was your problem with Roli and what particular Roli thing did you try? I'm not a keyboard player's a-hole but I absolutely love my Seaboard and Lightpads.
I can't answer for other people but my experience is that the Blocks are pretty cool, but the Rise was problematic for the way I wanted to play it. To me MPE should be pretty extreme, I'm not looking for a subtle difference from a regular keyboard, and pushing down hard on the Rise for aftertouch etc. resulted in bunched rubber. If you reversed the way slide works it was a little better, but I started thinking about ergonomics and how you're not supposed to lock knuckles when you play guitar or really anything, it can lead to problems, and I wasn't seeing a logical way around it without sacrificing slide.

The Seaboard Block is a bit better this way, but compared to the Linnstrument it's still somewhat fussy. On the other hand the Block is much easier to do big chords on, anything over 3 notes. So my solution was to have both, the Linnstrument for extreme lead type stuff and the Block for complex chords.

The other elephant is pitch, with the Roli there is no correction, you hit it dead on or you're subtly out of pitch, the Linnstrument pitch corrects on initial strike. I think had they implemented that and coated it with teflon or something slippery that allowed for slides without locked knuckles and Roli wouldn't have filed for bankruptcy and decided to be a beginners company. There's a reason fretless guitars aren't popular. :shrug:
I’m not saying that the Rise would ever be for you, but from what you wrote, it seems as if you didn’t approach it like a very new thing, and instead, let it’s keyboard like layout inform your approach. It takes a much lighter and more subtle touch than a traditional keyboard. Once I got used to it, none of what you mentioned was a problem.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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machinesworking
KVRAF
3888 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:37 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 am
I’m not saying that the Rise would ever be for you, but from what you wrote, it seems as if you didn’t approach it like a very new thing, and instead, let it’s keyboard like layout inform your approach. It takes a much lighter and more subtle touch than a traditional keyboard. Once I got used to it, none of what you mentioned was a problem.
It's always a problem to push all the way down for full Pressure, then slide all the way up for full Slide. That motion which is the only way to get 100% slide and 100% pressure, is the issue. Like I said reversing it sort of solves it, but to get to 100% you are going to lock your first knuckle even with slide reversed. So if you're not an extremist, then yes, subtle and soft touch wise the Seaboards are pretty cool, but I'm an extremist. I play electric guitar mostly, not acoustic. :shrug:

If you're comparing the two, which is easy for me to do since I own both, the Linnstrument is miles more ergonomic for full slide plus pressure moves. The Roli is much easier to use for complex chords, since the Linnstruments bass guitar layout is also accompanied by small pads, you get scrunched on the Linnstrument unless you figure out non guitar or keyboard frettings for the chord.

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BONES
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12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:00 pm

The bunching problem is largely mitigated in the Seaboard Block. It feels a little less squishy than a Rise but if you want either to be big and bold, you can program that into them so you don't have to press so hard to get those big changes. I liked my Rise well enough but the Seaboard Block works way better for me.
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machinesworking
KVRAF
3888 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:05 pm

Yeah I agree with that, the Block is less likely to cause issues with rough playing. I think if I was going to recommend the Rise it would be to someone with a gentle touch, that and messing with the MPE settings in the patch to get it right for your playing etc. I sold mine months ago, my playing style was pretty much going to make knuckle locking happen on the Rise. Results may vary, but I could not see myself occasionally not trying out a patch without adjusting settings and locking a knuckle

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20494 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:09 am

machinesworking wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:05 pm
Yeah I agree with that, the Block is less likely to cause issues with rough playing. I think if I was going to recommend the Rise it would be to someone with a gentle touch, that and messing with the MPE settings in the patch to get it right for your playing etc. I sold mine months ago, my playing style was pretty much going to make knuckle locking happen on the Rise. Results may vary, but I could not see myself occasionally not trying out a patch without adjusting settings and locking a knuckle
Assuming Roli is able to re-release the Rise next year, perhaps it will be more like the Block in the surface.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:05 pm

I dunno, I think at least part of it is because the Block is physically smaller, so the rubber doesn't get the chance to bunch as much. I do prefer the more scalloped edges for the keys in the Block, though. That's something they could definitely bring to the Rise.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
11392 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:26 pm

machinesworking wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:37 am
zerocrossing wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 am
I’m not saying that the Rise would ever be for you, but from what you wrote, it seems as if you didn’t approach it like a very new thing, and instead, let it’s keyboard like layout inform your approach. It takes a much lighter and more subtle touch than a traditional keyboard. Once I got used to it, none of what you mentioned was a problem.
It's always a problem to push all the way down for full Pressure, then slide all the way up for full Slide. That motion which is the only way to get 100% slide and 100% pressure, is the issue. Like I said reversing it sort of solves it, but to get to 100% you are going to lock your first knuckle even with slide reversed. So if you're not an extremist, then yes, subtle and soft touch wise the Seaboards are pretty cool, but I'm an extremist. I play electric guitar mostly, not acoustic. :shrug:

If you're comparing the two, which is easy for me to do since I own both, the Linnstrument is miles more ergonomic for full slide plus pressure moves. The Roli is much easier to use for complex chords, since the Linnstruments bass guitar layout is also accompanied by small pads, you get scrunched on the Linnstrument unless you figure out non guitar or keyboard frettings for the chord.
:shrug: I don’t know, I’m also an electric guitarist and I’ve never had an issue with what you’re talking about. I can’t say that I’ve ever had the chance to play the Linnstrument, but love to see a link with a good performance on one.
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4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
12586 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:34 pm

As I said, although I know you're not listening, its a simple matter of setting up the responsiveness of the keyboard and the instrument to get maximum modulation without having to get pressure or glide to 100%. e.g. if your cutoff is already at 50%, then setting modulation to 100% won't have any effect after it gets to the 50% value, so you don't need to press as hard to achieve the maximum amount of modulation available. In Equator it's a doddle but it should be achievable in other synths, too, even if you have to add double entries into a mod matrix or something similar.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
3888 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:48 am

BONES wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:34 pm
As I said, although I know you're not listening, its a simple matter of setting up the responsiveness of the keyboard and the instrument to get maximum modulation without having to get pressure or glide to 100%. e.g. if your cutoff is already at 50%, then setting modulation to 100% won't have any effect after it gets to the 50% value, so you don't need to press as hard to achieve the maximum amount of modulation available. In Equator it's a doddle but it should be achievable in other synths, too, even if you have to add double entries into a mod matrix or something similar.
Hmm? to quote myself:
that and messing with the MPE settings in the patch to get it right for your playing etc.

So yeah I acknowledged your point.
The thing is though like you mention here, the MPE settings on the Rise and Block can only be tweaked so far, at some point you're going to have to modify the patch on Equator etc. That was my point earlier, the knuckle locking I mentioned is still likely especially with the Rise, because a good portion of any MPE synths patches are set up with 0-127 slide and pressure settings.

My solution is to now play it like that, not use it for drastic pressure plus slide playing. Otherwise I end up locking a knuckle when auditioning patches.

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machinesworking
KVRAF
3888 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Post Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:58 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:26 pm
:shrug: I don’t know, I’m also an electric guitarist and I’ve never had an issue with what you’re talking about. I can’t say that I’ve ever had the chance to play the Linnstrument, but love to see a link with a good performance on one.
This one is just nuts to me, and I'm gonna flatly say it, there's no way you haven't seen good performances on the Linnstrument, they just haven't been in styles of music you like. Linn seems to be a Jazz guy, so most of the Linnstrumentalist series is about jazzy leads. Not my style either but to say the performances aren't good is just??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypHCxq93Jsk

MillerSam
KVRAF
1576 posts since 21 Dec, 2012

Post Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:29 am

There is a new one. The developer just finished it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYUlt6ObM44&t=58s
Synth Anatomy
http://www.synthanatomy.com
Sound Design and Software / IOS Synthesizer Videochannel

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20494 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:25 am

MillerSam wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:29 am
There is a new one. The developer just finished it
I have a pre-order for this one... since I have the Linnstrument and an Osmose on order, I could use the Erae Touch as a software drum machine. It seems quite flexible.

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