"Solarstone - Release": how would you analyze the harmony?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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KVRian
803 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:13 pm

Of course. Me and anybody else classical trained. It is not anywhere near non-tonal or serial music. It just presents an unresolved version of tonality. Try actually moving in stacks of perfect fours (e.g. start with C-F-Bb) with no inversion to get the right quartal sound, and beware your root movements, so they do not accidentally invoke a feeling of a tonal center to which all movements want to return. That would be an important point for quartal harmony to stay quartal.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:27 pm

"because it relies on those "indeterminate" sus chords"
It's a f**king three note sonority that just sits there on I. It has a quartal aspect, who would deny it, but you've chosen in calling it that to assert something about it which misses crucial facts in usage. Not all sus chords are quartal, the concept exists an epoch before anyone was seen to get interested in quartal harmony. Most of sus chords in a chord chart refer to tertial harmony. (You begin to see it 'on the street' as it were in jazz people like McCoy Tyner, in the 1960s. A lot of that he's calling it by tertial chord names. Maiden Voyage by Herbie Hancock should probably be simply called quartal chords.
People differ as to what they want to see in the chart.)

It's not going anywhere, there's no indeterminate, there are no questions, it is this simple thing. After about a minute of it doing nothing I supposed it isn't going to get interested in quartal constructions as a thing.

I showed you quartal constructions as a real thing in music, but you don't want to know. To save face at this point here's more and more bullshitting. We have no confidence in your statements, the con ain't happening.

KVRist

Topic Starter

77 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:57 pm

So if I had written it as "has a quartal character", then you fellows would have taken it easier?

I have no face to save by the way. I'm an insignificant person, with a few blips of very minor success here and there in past two decades of making music. Making and analysing music remains an inalienable part of my life.

Mine and yours theoretical knowledge and perspectives are obviously not exactly the same. I would not think that as reason for strong language, but I suppose that's just life.

jancivil wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:27 pm
It has a quartal aspect, who would deny it [...]
The other fellow seemed to ;) But now that you've said that, I feel a bit less confused by the responses here.


EDIT:
jancivil wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:27 pm
I showed you quartal constructions as a real thing in music, but you don't want to know.
I rather enjoyed the first part of what you linked. And I'm something of a fan of Joe Hisaishi, so I do have some small previous exposure to concept of quartals.

Still, I do seem to irk you fellows in a major - or perhaps tritonal - way. That is also interesting.

KVRist
198 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:43 pm

Jan your thing is friggin' cool!!

I'd describe the OP's music simply a modal thing in Phrygian mode mostly... in my internal language it's something like

Code: Select all

5  b3     1
4  b2    b7
1  b6     4
1  b2 b3  4
:p

User avatar
KVRian
803 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:04 pm

N__K wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:57 pm
So if I had written it as "has a quartal character", then you fellows would have taken it easier?
No, it does not cover the general nature of it and is still misleading as far as I am concerned. Sus harmonies are as old as the tonal and modal cadences themselves and meant to be resolved and do not become none-tertial just because they are unresolved, especially not if they are rooted like yours.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm

"So if I had written it as "has a quartal character", then you fellows would have taken it easier?"
I will have, for certain. I objected to glib statements of fact which are not factual at all. I also objected to the music in that video after I decided to check it. I didn't imagine something with no chordal movement whatsoever. :lol:

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:06 pm

FTR, I like music which goes nowhere and has zero chords, let alone chord changes. This was bubblegum afaic.
No problem, it may be divine for you, in which case I'm wrong.

I wouldn't call it 'sus harmonies' any more than I could call it 'quartal' with a straight face. There is one sonority for at least a minute which changes not at all. It's just a sonority. It has a quartal aspect but is not really a sign of quartal harmony (and was probably done by someone with equally little interest in that, in the world).

KVRist

Topic Starter

77 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:27 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:01 pm
I also objected to the music in that video after I decided to check it.
You could be infuriated by these, then:

Marzz - Velvet Star (Original Mix): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRg20ULmiQU

Armin van Buuren - Sunburn (album mix from "76"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67qfvzqd47k

Two of my favorites from that era. In both, effectively a single chord / pitch-set for the duration of the track. Even the bass pitch stays the same.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:19 pm

a nicely passive aggressive PM from the OP, who has never heard of a teacher mocking something like the vid in the initial post. I'm not being paid as a teacher here, I'm just someone on the internet who owes you nothing and has noted the lack of respect for the forum by trying to fake knowing stuff you just don't know. I have a really low threshold bullshit tolerance. As a person, you don't know me at all and you evidently aren't actually the kind of guy who would try to get a sense of who you're dealing with at all before shittalking. "intolerant of diversity" gets a <f**k off> no matter who you are.

If this is your flavor, me mocking it does what? I said it may be simply divine to you, in which case my attitude towards it is nothing, I'm even wrong.
The problem was these (laughable) statements of fact that are quite distant from reality. The next problem which has been re-rehearsed in each reply, is to keep arguing you didn't get this wrong. This is not cool with some people.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:29 pm

OH, FTR, I was laughing at the video first of all because of the enormous chasm between what it's interested in versus my understanding and application of quartal sonorities or harmonies over the last half century. This was actually astonishing. and hilarious

Further personal messages after that go directly in the trash btw. My tolerance for flagrant passive aggression is also very low at this point. Grow up, gain some experience and do the work.

KVRAF
22881 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:55 pm

here's quartal harmony referring to Tyner's practice.
the first two are identical to Satie's, number three deviates. (I don't think there is anything like it before, this is ca.1890-92.) "...like the rootless voicings, it functions in many different ways" is a sign of what people are about with 'quartal voicings' in jazz. Just like the first time I was tested on a quintal stack, he's relating everything to tertial chord names, because jazz. And just as I did in the adaptation, I made the quartal stack work with a quasi-tonal meanings

https://y2u.be/twFx9_R25d8

The first time after I found le fils, I showed it to my old musical partner-in-crime and his assessment of the middle section, after the first with the planed mixed fourths, was 'sounds like McCoy Tyner's running out of ideas'. Well, it was a crap performance of it. But I decided immediately I had to adapt it and at least make the middle section not seem like a fizzle after the astonishing beginning.

KVRist

Topic Starter

77 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:07 pm

jancivil wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:19 pm
a nicely passive aggressive PM from the OP, who has never heard of a teacher mocking something like the vid in the initial post.
Interesting that you saw a need to tell of private messages to an audience, instead of keeping it between two people.



For the fellows with popcorn bags at hand, this was the exchange:
N__K wrote: Hello there.

Regarding recent discussions, I think you too are dressing some of my words up as a strawman of sorts, making me into an adversary against whom to argue.

And this:

[...] show a video of some lame, lame electropop music [...]
[...] also objected to the music in that video [...]

...I really cannot understand. None of my instructors ever talked that way about music presented to them by students. And when I myself have tutored, I've never said such things of music which my juniors look up to - nor of their own attempts, however flawed they were.

I'd suggest utilizing and adapting institutional methods you're familiar with to help others, instead of overriding with authority and telling to fvck off.
For example, "Release" being a simple piece, I'd expect you to be capable of doing an analysis of it with set theory, and/or whatever tonal framework you prefer.

In other words, start from frames of reference of those you claim to be able to teach.

To which the reply was:
jancivil wrote: f**k you. you've done little more than toss up strawmen to insult in preference to any adult standard of discourse. We're not in academic milieu at all; if we were you'd be ridiculed perhaps more drily, perhaps not but no_one takes bullshit like this as anything other than it is in the real world.

You're a stone bore. Never darken my doorstep with your juvenile arrogance again, you fatuous incompetent poseur.

..and to that:
N__K wrote: That's one of most lively and judgemental responses I've received from anyone :)

It may seem absurd, but do go on if you feel like it.




***



Back to public posts.
jancivil wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:19 pm
I'm not being paid as a teacher here, I'm just someone on the internet who owes you nothing and has noted the lack of respect for the forum by trying to fake knowing stuff you just don't know. I have a really low threshold bullshit tolerance.
Fair thing. But what you call "fake knowing stuff" tends to be, from my perspective, "nearest way to describe it per my current knowledge". From where I come from, that is tolerated, and further guidance given with a bit less salt than what some of messages here have had.

Also, at some point, personal interpretations do come into play, and that point is not the same in all wetwares.

Thus, also in the future, I will settle at personal interpretations, recontextualization and reinvention when that suits my needs as a practitioner of music. My capabilites - including cognitive limitations and ways of working around them - are part of what I am in this lifetime; and I will not stand to be denied as a person, anymore than you.




Speaking of respect:
jancivil wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:19 pm
As a person, you don't know me at all and you evidently aren't actually the kind of guy who would try to get a sense of who you're dealing with at all before shittalking. "intolerant of diversity" gets a <f**k off> no matter who you are.
Neither do you know me as a person, but that has not stopped you from launching double whammies off your Lawgiver.

I don't mind it much, at least not when reasonably awake and nourished. I've been through things in life after which getting told to "fvck off" by an admirably competent but very cranky theorist on a forum makes me laugh out loud at the absurdity of life :D



jancivil wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:19 pm
The problem was these (laughable) statements of fact that are quite distant from reality. The next problem which has been re-rehearsed in each reply, is to keep arguing you didn't get this wrong. This is not cool with some people.
You have already advised me to think more carefully when to use the word "quartal" - while agreeing that "Release" does have some aspects which can be considered in that context, or at least in relation to it.

Thank you for that.

For me, what matters in this thread - aside from the drama, especially now that we've written some entertaining dialogue - is finding out various ways to describe and categorize musical phenomena in "Release".


***


I had actually began my own analysis before starting this thread, and written rudimentary formulas with romans + chord symbols + my 12-pitch markup. Then I started looking more carefully at the spectrum analysis and noticed at various parts more peaks which are likely to be notes.

So I went back to staring at frequency peaks, because - somewhat like you insist on accurate terminology - I try my best to do accurate transcription.

Also, I'm quite error-prone and unsure of my theoretical abilities - in many cases, justifiably so - and wanted to see if anyone would post the exact formulas at which I had arrived / am still arriving, thus confirming that I was not in error.

Things being as they are, it looks like most extensive descriptive analysis of "Release" may end up being my own. Not sure in how many days, but I'll do what I can and let you fellows judge. Perhaps we'll have opportunities for more drama and absurdity :)




EDIT: for the record, I also approached TribeOfHǫfuð with private messages, contents of which I will not disclose unless they do. But I did receive a warning of being reported if I send another PM - and I did indeed send one after that.

So if this profile gets banned before I post my analysis, that would be the reason ;)

User avatar
KVRian
803 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:13 pm

N__K wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:07 pm
EDIT: for the record, I also approached TribeOfHǫfuð with private messages, contents of which I will not disclose unless they do. But I did receive a warning of being reported if I send another PM - and I did indeed send one after that.

So if this profile gets banned before I post my analysis, that would be the reason ;)
You have had too much attention already for the quality of what you have written, and then you start to make up things that never happened, ‘you keep mentioning’, and send it to me in a PM, while whining about my criticism in these threads, which has been 100% on topic in contrast to your hilarious psychoanalysis and accusations in the chord thread that you just had to fill in between your lines to cover up for the lack of competent answers. As far as Jan and I concern, I have really seen no other members around here whose theoretical knowledge is as well documented in our music as ours. That is why we stick to PMs or the music cafe sometimes, when the level of this forum becomes too threatening to music theory in particular and the concept of intelligent life in the universe in general. You wanted qualified answers, well, you got them. You can close the threads yourself if you do not like them. It won’t turn sht into sunshine that you start spamming our personal mail-boxes with more complaints. Stick to the case or back off is the message. Not hard to grasp, rly.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

KVRist

Topic Starter

77 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:44 pm

TribeOfHǫfuð wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:13 pm
As far as Jan and I concern, I have really seen no other members around here whose theoretical knowledge is as well documented in our music as ours.
You and Jan, in your music.

Surely the KvR Music Theory forum is not reserved only for music and theories you two are experts in?

If you think me, my unsound methods, and links to 2000s trance are irritating, just wait for the time when post-2010s EDM fellows realize their youth is past and the fun has shifted more towards analysis and theory :D



EDIT:

Besides, I'm fairly sure that on some level both of you actually enjoy the appearance of an irritating new-ish member with unorthodox concepts (and a mouth to match) more than silence at the Astral Diner.

At least on my part, I hope there is more music-related fun to be had here, than on a certain local forum I used to frequent, on which everyone has by now aged and most have left.

And I do value the fact that you have solid knowledge in your fields. But I am definitely not of same musical traditions - aside from a few shared favorites , perhaps - and if I remain here, we will surely have differences of perspectives also in the future. But, as said, I suspect that all of us prefer that to silence, at least on some hours of some days.

User avatar
KVRian
803 posts since 4 Feb, 2021

Post Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:26 pm

N__K wrote:
Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:44 pm
Theory forum is not reserved only for music and theories you two are experts in?
Another strawman, just like your claim that we are against diversity. This forum contains everything from vague self invented theory like your own to the disciplines we are trained in. That does not mean we are obligied to embrace the former. I am off your threads now, will delete your PMs without reading, and report your personal stuff from the other thread if you continue this personal route, which you stick to now. You have your answers, take them or leave them.
Tribe Of Hǫfuð https://soundcloud.com/user-228690154 "First rule: From one perfect consonance to another perfect consonance one must proceed in contrary or obligue motion." Johann Joseph Fux 1725.

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