Order of FX - Clipping and EQ

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
KVRer
24 posts since 7 Sep, 2021

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:20 am

I am new to music production and I am wondering the following in regards to EQ and Clipping

- What FX will increase the peak amplitudes if done before Clipping? (EQ boosts, anything else?), and when ideally in the signal chain should I limit my peaks?

- What FX matters regarding where to place the EQ in the Signal Chain?, or does it largely not matter if you EQ before/after other FX?

- Is Reverb an additional sound to the original sound (like delay) or does it actually change the original sound?

KVRAF
1829 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:34 am

If there is no time modulation involved: EQ, delay and reverb are "linear" effects that can be rearranged in order without any difference. (In theory all of these effects can be represented as a combination of delays.)

Compression, distortion and modulation effects are "nonlinear" and their position in the effects sequence is significant.

(Ok, the interaction between EQ and chorus is very subtle. But between e.g. phaser and delay it is obvious.)

If you have a search there have been many discussions of effects ordering on KVR already.

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:09 am

Minimal phase EQ especially (but also linear phase if you cut something that's in an odd phase relation with something else) can increase peak.
I place clippers last in the chain. if i use it when mixing it's the last thing on the bus that's clipped, unless i'm clipping for the sound.
On masters, last before the limiter.

Reverb unless you mix it 100% as an insert, is an additional sound. usually quieter than dry sound.
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KVRian
920 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:35 am

An upward expander will increase the peak amplitude. Upward expanders are compressors with inverted ratios.

When you drive the signal into a dynamic processor with an EQ, whether its a compressor or a saturator, you are shaping how the dynamic processor responds, sort of like moving a magnifying glass over an image. When you use EQ after dynamics, you are just changing the focal point of what's already there, like moving a spotlight over a static image.

Generally you want to use limiters at the very end of your signal chain to protect against any errant transients that might clip your final mixdown.

I wouldn't recommend using a hard clipper anywhere unless you're just making noise instead of music.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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KVRian
920 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:44 am

Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:09 am
Reverb unless you mix it 100% as an insert, is an additional sound. usually quieter than dry sound.
Reverb is actually subtractive as well as additive, because mixing very short delays back into a signal causes phase cancellation. That's how flangers work and why different rooms sound different. :idea:
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am

most reverbs don't mix in dry delays tho, they're all phased out already
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KVRAF
1829 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:32 pm

Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am
most reverbs don't mix in dry delays tho, they're all phased out already
Technically "phasing out" one delay tap is equivalent to mixing together a lot of slightly different dry delay taps :D

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:36 pm

imrae wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:32 pm
Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am
most reverbs don't mix in dry delays tho, they're all phased out already
Technically "phasing out" one delay tap is equivalent to mixing together a lot of slightly different dry delay taps :D
i mean you can just put a phase shift on one copy :)
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KVRAF
1829 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:37 pm

Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:36 pm
imrae wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:32 pm
Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am
most reverbs don't mix in dry delays tho, they're all phased out already
Technically "phasing out" one delay tap is equivalent to mixing together a lot of slightly different dry delay taps :D
i mean you can just put a phase shift on one copy :)
And how is a phase shift effect implemented?
Last edited by imrae on Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:49 pm

imrae wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:37 pm
And how is a phase shift effect implemented?
allpass filter or any other filter (like phaser i guess)

i mean, i don't have any reverb that would sound as a phaser or a chorus.

edit: nice edit
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KVRAF
1829 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm

Ploki wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:49 pm
imrae wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:37 pm
And how is a phase shift effect implemented?
allpass filter or any other filter (like phaser i guess)

i mean, i don't have any reverb that would sound as a phaser or a chorus.

edit: nice edit
Apologies for unintended ninja edit!

A phaser or chorus is nonlinear if it includes an LFO modulating the delay time. But at heart a phaser is an all-pass filter (which digitally is implemented using 1-sample delays) and a chorus is a comb filter (which is literally just a delay).

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KVRAF
1634 posts since 25 Apr, 2009 from France

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:12 pm

You can do whatever you want as long as you keep your clipper as the latest FX in your chain.

If you change whatever after, you're going to edit a clipped signal, not the signal you think you're hearing.

Anything before is just creativity. Rules are made to be broken.
This post is supposed to be non-agressive. Now please give me a broad smile. :ud:

KVRAF
4726 posts since 17 Dec, 2009

Post Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:19 pm

imrae wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:56 pm
Apologies for unintended ninja edit!

A phaser or chorus is nonlinear if it includes an LFO modulating the delay time. But at heart a phaser is an all-pass filter (which digitally is implemented using 1-sample delays) and a chorus is a comb filter (which is literally just a delay).
:tu:

1 sample delay is also the basis for Karplus strong string model.
1 sample delays really are useful eh? :D
DJErmac wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:12 pm
You can do whatever you want as long as you keep your clipper as the latest FX in your chain.

If you change whatever after, you're going to edit a clipped signal, not the signal you think you're hearing.

Anything before is just creativity. Rules are made to be broken.
yes. Clipped signal upon reconstruction == intersample peak.

which is not necessarily bad if DAC has headroom, can increase apparent loudness
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