ROLI's writing on the wall happened

[abject39]

Sold my Rise 49 years ago. It was very evident to me ROLI lost focus. While the Pro audio market may be niche I think I would've gladly spent more and more money on ROLI products back then. I never owned such a well refined keyboard controller prior to the Rise. It was built like a tank. Everything down to packaging felt premium. But, sadly, it became quite clear it was an afterthought to ROLI. In all the time I had it, I only once got it to connect to Windows via Bluetooth, and that was only thanks to my CME xkey and dongle. The initial software felt half baked. The Fxspansion plugins ran sluggish. Equator didn't have basics like an arpeggiator. The hardware never got firmware update to fix the Bluetooth, or upgrade the XY table and faders behavior. Instead of focusing on their core customer's experience they released iPhone apps and blocks. It was so frustrating seeing everyone except the core customers getting support. I remember just being so frustrated with every new non-pro product or update. It was a slap in the face each time. I even joined the LUMI Kickstarter and that was a disaster (Delay after delay after delay). In the end I pulled out of the Kickstarter before my unit shipped and sold my Rise 49. Side note: This worked out in my favor because I purchased an old Yamaha Clavinova from a lady locally who had it collecting dust in her garage. I ended up with a whole 88 key piano with lights for learning for a small fraction of the cost of a single LUMI. Seeing the shape the company is in now, tells me that my gut feeling about the company losing their way was not wrong at all. It's a shame because if ROLI had continued doing what gained them attention in the first place, they'd be cash kings. There was a time when I would've gladly paid for any premium hardware they put their name on. Now, they've ruined their heritage and brand to the point I wouldn't go near their stuff today.

[tbugz]

I don't frequent the site very often but decided to do a search on what's new in polyAT controllers for my Iridium. ROLI came to mind first and lo' I stumble on this thread which I read w interest.
In my search I saw more and more mainly SW but also some new HW now supporting MPE. In fact, the trending demand for capable controllers appears to outpace the supply of reliable and available controllers.
With this in mind, I know who is very happy with the bust of ROLI, the inconsistency of Linn, unaffordable or as yet unavailable other options: the big boys of Japan. As demand grows they will jump right in w MPE capable HW controllers especially since ROLI's future appears untenable. Let the up-till-now main competitor implode, let the market hunger and release the products right away. You think such gear isn't in the works in R&D, especially by Akai? Yes maybe still niche but expect much wider implementation with very poor options atm.

Anyway, I heard some good things about KMI Pro4 so leaning towards getting that. Any feedback on KMI?

[BONES]

Demand is not going to go up. If the market was viable, Korg and Roland would already be in there. It's a tiny niche market and it is going to stay that way, just like polyphonic aftertouch, which has been around since the 1970s, yet pretty much nobody has ever bothered with it. MPE is an awful kludge on MIDI, taking up al l16 channels for just one instrument. Maybe MIDI 2 offers a more elegant solution, which might help the cause of MPE, otherwise I can't see it flourishing.

OTOH, the multi-dimensions of touch thing is amazingly expressive and easily supported by anyone who can be bothered but even that doesn't seem to happen. I always run all my Roli stuff in single channel mode and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything at all.

Sold my Rise 49 years ago. It was very evident to me ROLI lost focus.

How so? For my money they've just got better and better, broadening their offerings without losing focus at all. I can play Equator with Lumi Keys and I can play Lumi Studio with a Rise. You can't grow a company by doing the same thing over and over again, you have to diversify your offerings.

When they released Blocks, I didn't think I'd ever have any use for them but when I got a chance to play a Seaboard Block I realised it suited me better than the Rise, so I bought a Songmaker Kit with the money I got from selling my Rise 25. Even then, I ignored the two little blocks and only used the Seaboard for about 18 months. One day I stumbled across a YT video that got me interested in the Lightpad, in particular, and now I own four of them, plus another control block. So I think your attitude is more about your narrow mindedness than it is about Roli losing focus.

While the Pro audio market may be niche I think I would've gladly spent more and more money on ROLI products back then. I never owned such a well refined keyboard controller prior to the Rise. It was built like a tank. Everything down to packaging felt premium. But, sadly, it became quite clear it was an afterthought to ROLI.

What was, the only product line they had?

In all the time I had it, I only once got it to connect to Windows via Bluetooth, and that was only thanks to my CME xkey and dongle.

Roli have always made it clear it's only meant to work with Bluetooth on macOS. I've never even bothered to try on my system. What I love, though, is that I can connect one Block to USB and it connects and powers all of them, no matter how I connect them up. It's quite extraordinary.

The initial software felt half baked. The Fxspansion plugins ran sluggish. Equator didn't have basics like an arpeggiator.

I've not had either of those issues. The software, particularly Equator, has always worked extremely well for me and seems professional and polished. I have never understood why a softsynth would need an arpeggiator, especially one that is a plugin for a full-blown sequencer, so I don't see that as any kind of problem.

Instead of focusing on their core customer's experience they released iPhone apps and blocks.

Which, as I said, if you weren't so closed-minded you would see as catering very much to their core customers.

I remember just being so frustrated with every new non-pro product or update. It was a slap in the face each time.

Only because you chose to see it that way. To me it became an expanding sphere of new opportunities, once I pulled my head out of my arse.

Seeing the shape the company is in now, tells me that my gut feeling about the company losing their way was not wrong at all.

As opposed to all the other MPE controller companies who are going from strength to strength? I have never so much as seen a Continuum or a Linnstrument so compared to those guys, Roil has been a roaring success.

It's a shame because if ROLI had continued doing what gained them attention in the first place, they'd be cash kings.

How? They had to discontinue their original flagship product because nobody wanted it and it only took them a few years to get a Seaboard into the hands of everyone who was willing to pay for it. You can't keep selling product once you've saturated the market, you have to grow the market, either by lowering your prices or diversifying your product lines. Obviously there are no economies of scale in the MPE controller business - they all seem to be hand-built - so lowering prices was probably never on the table, which leaves broadening your product offerings.

There was a time when I would've gladly paid for any premium hardware they put their name on. Now, they've ruined their heritage and brand to the point I wouldn't go near their stuff today.

How does that work? If you were happy with the product you owned, why didn't you keep it? The fact you sold it to buy some 20 year old pile of krap tells me you were never going to buy another Roli product, no matter what.

[pdxindy]

I don't frequent the site very often but decided to do a search on what's new in polyAT controllers for my Iridium. ROLI came to mind first and lo' I stumble on this thread which I read w interest.
In my search I saw more and more mainly SW but also some new HW now supporting MPE. In fact, the trending demand for capable controllers appears to outpace the supply of reliable and available controllers.
With this in mind, I know who is very happy with the bust of ROLI, the inconsistency of Linn, unaffordable or as yet unavailable other options: the big boys of Japan. As demand grows they will jump right in w MPE capable HW controllers especially since ROLI's future appears untenable. Let the up-till-now main competitor implode, let the market hunger and release the products right away. You think such gear isn't in the works in R&D, especially by Akai? Yes maybe still niche but expect much wider implementation with very poor options atm.

Anyway, I heard some good things about KMI Pro4 so leaning towards getting that. Any feedback on KMI?

Your Iridium now supports MPE (firmware V3 beta).

[abject39]

Demand is not going to go up. If the market was viable, Korg and Roland would already be in there. It's a tiny niche market and it is going to stay that way, just like polyphonic aftertouch, which has been around since the 1970s, yet pretty much nobody has ever bothered with it. MPE is an awful kludge on MIDI, taking up al l16 channels for just one instrument. Maybe MIDI 2 offers a more elegant solution, which might help the cause of MPE, otherwise I can't see it flourishing.

OTOH, the multi-dimensions of touch thing is amazingly expressive and easily supported by anyone who can be bothered but even that doesn't seem to happen. I always run all my Roli stuff in single channel mode and I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything at all.

Sold my Rise 49 years ago. It was very evident to me ROLI lost focus.

How so? For my money they've just got better and better, broadening their offerings without losing focus at all. I can play Equator with Lumi Keys and I can play Lumi Studio with a Rise. You can't grow a company by doing the same thing over and over again, you have to diversify your offerings.

When they released Blocks, I didn't think I'd ever have any use for them but when I got a chance to play a Seaboard Block I realised it suited me better than the Rise, so I bought a Songmaker Kit with the money I got from selling my Rise 25. Even then, I ignored the two little blocks and only used the Seaboard for about 18 months. One day I stumbled across a YT video that got me interested in the Lightpad, in particular, and now I own four of them, plus another control block. So I think your attitude is more about your narrow mindedness than it is about Roli losing focus.

While the Pro audio market may be niche I think I would've gladly spent more and more money on ROLI products back then. I never owned such a well refined keyboard controller prior to the Rise. It was built like a tank. Everything down to packaging felt premium. But, sadly, it became quite clear it was an afterthought to ROLI.

What was, the only product line they had?

In all the time I had it, I only once got it to connect to Windows via Bluetooth, and that was only thanks to my CME xkey and dongle.

Roli have always made it clear it's only meant to work with Bluetooth on macOS. I've never even bothered to try on my system. What I love, though, is that I can connect one Block to USB and it connects and powers all of them, no matter how I connect them up. It's quite extraordinary.

The initial software felt half baked. The Fxspansion plugins ran sluggish. Equator didn't have basics like an arpeggiator.

I've not had either of those issues. The software, particularly Equator, has always worked extremely well for me and seems professional and polished. I have never understood why a softsynth would need an arpeggiator, especially one that is a plugin for a full-blown sequencer, so I don't see that as any kind of problem.

Instead of focusing on their core customer's experience they released iPhone apps and blocks.

Which, as I said, if you weren't so closed-minded you would see as catering very much to their core customers.

I remember just being so frustrated with every new non-pro product or update. It was a slap in the face each time.

Only because you chose to see it that way. To me it became an expanding sphere of new opportunities, once I pulled my head out of my arse.

Seeing the shape the company is in now, tells me that my gut feeling about the company losing their way was not wrong at all.

As opposed to all the other MPE controller companies who are going from strength to strength? I have never so much as seen a Continuum or a Linnstrument so compared to those guys, Roil has been a roaring success.

It's a shame because if ROLI had continued doing what gained them attention in the first place, they'd be cash kings.

How? They had to discontinue their original flagship product because nobody wanted it and it only took them a few years to get a Seaboard into the hands of everyone who was willing to pay for it. You can't keep selling product once you've saturated the market, you have to grow the market, either by lowering your prices or diversifying your product lines. Obviously there are no economies of scale in the MPE controller business - they all seem to be hand-built - so lowering prices was probably never on the table, which leaves broadening your product offerings.

There was a time when I would've gladly paid for any premium hardware they put their name on. Now, they've ruined their heritage and brand to the point I wouldn't go near their stuff today.

How does that work? If you were happy with the product you owned, why didn't you keep it? The fact you sold it to buy some 20 year old pile of krap tells me you were never going to buy another Roli product, no matter what.

This post is so offensive I'm not even sure if it's worth responding to half the points of it. All I can say is, not once did I even remotely mention selling any ROLI gear to buy any other gear. No clue where that even came from. Nor did I ever mentioning using any other competitor product. I'm baffled at how such rudeness could arise from a post about keyboard company.

[CinningBao]

that's BONES! Leaving a trail of confusion and offense in his path..
"Communicate with this human at your peril!" the 1940's robot proclaimed

[tbugz]

Demand is not going to go up. If the market was viable, Korg and Roland would already be in there. It's a tiny niche market and it is going to stay that way, just like polyphonic aftertouch, which has been around since the 1970s, yet pretty much nobody has ever bothered with it. MPE is an awful kludge on MIDI, taking up al l16 channels for just one instrument. Maybe MIDI 2 offers a more elegant solution, which might help the cause of MPE, otherwise I can't see it flourishing.

I'm not sure you understand the deliberate process by which large, established industry-leading corps decide to enter emerging products markets. Not to go too far OT, but look what's happening with Peloton ( the subscription exercise business) and you'll clearly see similarities w ROLI's situation. As their business model fails, giants like Amazon, Apple, Nautilus et al. make inroads to dominate the industry. Generally speaking, let brilliant independent innovators develop cutting edge ideas; bet on the same brilliant independent innovators being inept at business management; assess the future potential demand for said idea now that former brilliant independent innovator is humbled.
I don't know if MPE will eventually succeed. It's quite possible it will go like the 3D TV debacle from few yrs ago. My point is that more and more mainly SW (including major DAWs) and some HW manufacturers are releasing MPE capable products, while the existing MPE controller options are in a very sorry state. That is a fact. Wi th such wide SW implementation, MPE can no longer be considered "niche". Better way to put it is that the MPE controller tech is underdeveloped and mismanaged as a business.

[pdxindy]

I don't know if MPE will eventually succeed. It's quite possible it will go like the 3D TV debacle from few yrs ago. My point is that more and more mainly SW (including major DAWs) and some HW manufacturers are releasing MPE capable products, while the existing MPE controller options are in a very sorry state. That is a fact. Wi th such wide SW implementation, MPE can no longer be considered "niche". Better way to put it is that the MPE controller tech is underdeveloped and mismanaged as a business.

For me MPE has already succeeded. I have effective controllers and lots of MPE capable synths and make use of them every day.

I disagree that controllers are in a sorry state. My Linnstrument is awesome! Great piece of gear. I have the Haken Continuum, the Erae Touch has started shipping. The Osmose is getting close. I have both on pre-order. There are half a dozen other controllers as well. Just Roli has had financial problems due to excessive expectations. Their products are good. I’d say controllers are doing fine.

[tbugz]

For me MPE has already succeeded. I have effective controllers and lots of MPE capable synths and make use of them every day.

I disagree that controllers are in a sorry state. My Linnstrument is awesome! Great piece of gear. I have the Haken Continuum, the Erae Touch has started shipping. The Osmose is getting close. I have both on pre-order. There are half a dozen other controllers as well. Just Roli has had financial problems due to excessive expectations. Their products are good. I’d say controllers are doing fine.

You and I are on the same side, cheering for the same team. However, objectively the controller market IS in a sorry state. From what you listed:
Linn - $1k min and has playing issues from what I read. Also, esoteric style
Haken - $900-$5k! " " " " " "
ERAE - ~$900 and esoteric AF
Osmose - agree, real beauty but $2k and good luck finding
ROLI - they gave it the old college try!
I'm sure there are lesser known others that I'm unaware of.

KMI which is what I'm considering appears much more reasonably priced and available.

So look, compare above list w ALL the available SW instruments and DAW that are MPE capable. Heck, then throw in some HW brands like Wald, ASM, Sequential et al. and the discrepancy is enormous. Clearly the SW side is pushing the market with such wide implementation. The controller side is not keeping up, and the major brands remain risk aversive, instead taking a cautious wait and see approach. Unless these major brands enter the market with more approachable and less alien products, the MPE controller industry will remain innovative but small, fragmented with little market penetration to justify the plethora of SW counterparts.

[gaggle of hermits]

Linn - $1k min and has playing issues from what I read. Also, esoteric style

what are these playing issues of which you speak?

[machinesworking]

Linn - $1k min and has playing issues from what I read. Also, esoteric style

what are these playing issues of which you speak?

There aren't any. Roger Linn is a great engineer, time tested, but the internet is harsh.

[pdxindy]

However, objectively the controller market IS in a sorry state. From what you listed:
Linn - $1k min and has playing issues from what I read. Also, esoteric style
Haken - $900-$5k! " " " " " "
ERAE - ~$900 and esoteric AF
Osmose - agree, real beauty but $2k and good luck finding
ROLI - they gave it the old college try!
I'm sure there are lesser known others that I'm unaware of.

KMI which is what I'm considering appears much more reasonably priced and available.

So look, compare above list w ALL the available SW instruments and DAW that are MPE capable. Heck, then throw in some HW brands like Wald, ASM, Sequential et al. and the discrepancy is enormous. Clearly the SW side is pushing the market with such wide implementation. The controller side is not keeping up, and the major brands remain risk aversive, instead taking a cautious wait and see approach. Unless these major brands enter the market with more approachable and less alien products, the MPE controller industry will remain innovative but small, fragmented with little market penetration to justify the plethora of SW counterparts.

So what you mean by sorry state is you think MPE controllers are too expensive. You say that and then you ignore any of the cheaper MPE controllers.

Sensel Morph with one overlay is about $270. Extra overlays $35 each
Joue Play with 2 overlays is $290
Artifon Instrument 1 is $300
Keith McMillen QuNeo is $250
KM QuNexus is $179
K-Board Pro 4 is $600

All cheaper than the prices you listed.

Linnstrument has no playing issues. It works great.
The Continuum also has no playing issues.
ERAE Touch you dismiss by calling it esoteric as F. Doesn't look esoteric to me. Pretty straightforward I think. You can use one of the included layouts or use their software to create your own layout. Mine should arrive soon so I will give feedback on it when it does.
Osmose is $1800 not $2000

Seems like you are trying to find problems to make your point.

As for software and hardware:

It is easy and minimal cost for software synth developers to add basic MPE support. But only a few of them have added well rounded support which would include master channel and expression curves like Equator and the other Roli synths. As for DAW's, Live just added MPE recently and it still does not record the midi channel of each note. FL Studio has no MPE. Logic has poor MPE data editing. So there are 3 of the more popular DAW's with MPE limitations.

Hardware side, some of the synth makers have added some MPE support, but the synths may have minimal modulation options so not a lot you can do with say timbre. And it is not like they are adding stuff like expression curves either. Cost to hardware manufacturers is also minimal as there is no dedicated MPE hardware cost and it is just a firmware update.

It is all still a work in progress from all sides. With both software and hardware, most companies have done the minimal amount to address requests from users for MPE and are not pushing the market as you suggest.

I'm not complaining you understand. I am happy with where MPE is at this point and I am able to make effective use of it as is and it will keep being developed more fully.

[machinesworking]

Oh jeez? look at MPE adoption to VST3 adoption. MPE is getting adopted at a lightening pace compared.

Hardware wise, there are more MPE instruments out there than there are or were polyphonic aftertouch MIDI keyboards. The pace of adoption is relative, and if you see it compared to a similar tech in Poly AT, it's doing quite well, both soft and hardware wise.

[fairlyclose]

However, objectively the controller market IS in a sorry state. From what you listed:
Linn - $1k min and has playing issues from what I read. Also, esoteric style
Haken - $900-$5k! " " " " " "
ERAE - ~$900 and esoteric AF
Osmose - agree, real beauty but $2k and good luck finding
ROLI - they gave it the old college try!
I'm sure there are lesser known others that I'm unaware of.

KMI which is what I'm considering appears much more reasonably priced and available.

So look, compare above list w ALL the available SW instruments and DAW that are MPE capable. Heck, then throw in some HW brands like Wald, ASM, Sequential et al. and the discrepancy is enormous. Clearly the SW side is pushing the market with such wide implementation. The controller side is not keeping up, and the major brands remain risk aversive, instead taking a cautious wait and see approach. Unless these major brands enter the market with more approachable and less alien products, the MPE controller industry will remain innovative but small, fragmented with little market penetration to justify the plethora of SW counterparts.

So what you mean by sorry state is you think MPE controllers are too expensive. You say that and then you ignore any of the cheaper MPE controllers.

Sensel Morph with one overlay is about $270. Extra overlays $35 each
Joue Play with 2 overlays is $290
Artifon Instrument 1 is $300
Keith McMillen QuNeo is $250
KM QuNexus is $179
K-Board Pro 4 is $600

All cheaper than the prices you listed.

Linnstrument has no playing issues. It works great.
The Continuum also has no playing issues.
ERAE Touch you dismiss by calling it esoteric as F. Doesn't look esoteric to me. Pretty straightforward I think. You can use one of the included layouts or use their software to create your own layout. Mine should arrive soon so I will give feedback on it when it does.
Osmose is $1800 not $2000

Seems like you are trying to find problems to make your point.

As for software and hardware:

It is easy and minimal cost for software synth developers to add basic MPE support. But only a few of them have added well rounded support which would include master channel and expression curves like Equator and the other Roli synths. As for DAW's, Live just added MPE recently and it still does not record the midi channel of each note. FL Studio has no MPE. Logic has poor MPE data editing. So there are 3 of the more popular DAW's with MPE limitations.

Hardware side, some of the synth makers have added some MPE support, but the synths may have minimal modulation options so not a lot you can do with say timbre. And it is not like they are adding stuff like expression curves either. Cost to hardware manufacturers is also minimal as there is no dedicated MPE hardware cost and it is just a firmware update.

It is all still a work in progress from all sides. With both software and hardware, most companies have done the minimal amount to address requests from users for MPE and are not pushing the market as you suggest.

I'm not complaining you understand. I am happy with where MPE is at this point and I am able to make effective use of it as is and it will keep being developed more fully.

which if these is best for very light touch?

[BONES]

Not to go too far OT, but look what's happening with Peloton ( the subscription exercise business) and you'll clearly see similarities w ROLI's situation. As their business model fails, giants like Amazon, Apple, Nautilus et al. make inroads to dominate the industry.

There are no similarities here. Exercise is worth hundreds of billions of dollars, Peloton's revenue last year was close enough to $2 billion. It is a mainstream market with room to support a broad range of players and give big companies the kinds of returns they like. The MPE market is probably worth a few million, there is only room for so many players and products. Look at the Linnstrument, there isn't even a company. It's just Roger Linn, who outsources manufacturing to a third party. I don't know about Haken but it's probably just one or two people, which is how they stay afloat selling pretty much nothing. Roli thought they could turn it into a proper business but found out the market can't really support that so they have pivoted to another market they think/hope can sustain their corporate business model. No-one is going to try and steal their lunch because they've only got a handful of dry biscuits that's not worth the effort. Roli's spectacular failure is proof of that.

My point is that more and more mainly SW (including major DAWs) and some HW manufacturers are releasing MPE capable products, while the existing MPE controller options are in a very sorry state. That is a fact.

It is also a fact that all those synths support polyphonic aftertouch, which has been around for more than 50 years, yet almost nobody makes a keyboard to take advantage of that, do they? IT may have wide support but it remains a niche product.