Scales - do you change or can you change the scale midsong?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8496 posts since 5 Aug, 2009
Hey guys very noob question but i saw a video where someone showed how chords are or can be the same as scales.
So normally i pick a scale and know by ear and piano roll that im in key. Ok nice, but what about chord progressions?
Here comes the totally out of the box and crazy question from me.
If you do chord progressions are these in the same scale still or do they change the scale?
Be gentle please
So normally i pick a scale and know by ear and piano roll that im in key. Ok nice, but what about chord progressions?
Here comes the totally out of the box and crazy question from me.
If you do chord progressions are these in the same scale still or do they change the scale?
Be gentle please
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- KVRAF
- 15277 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Can you come up with any good reason why not?
How is it relevant what I do?
How is it relevant what I do?
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8496 posts since 5 Aug, 2009
Thx i see some how to tutorials e.g. rap or hip hop beats, i dunno if there is a difference and they choose a scale and stay in scale.
But i am no good in theory sadly and wonder if a Madonna song, michael jackson etc stay just in 1 scale from beginning to end or if they change too and if so how i know which scale is compatible to another? Sounds really stupid i guess but i mean it for real . I am not back at the pc sadly to start my chord progressio to find out if a chord progression stays in a scale or not.
But i am no good in theory sadly and wonder if a Madonna song, michael jackson etc stay just in 1 scale from beginning to end or if they change too and if so how i know which scale is compatible to another? Sounds really stupid i guess but i mean it for real . I am not back at the pc sadly to start my chord progressio to find out if a chord progression stays in a scale or not.
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- KVRAF
- 4358 posts since 30 Aug, 2012 from Sweden
Whatever sounds good to your ears. There are many songs that go outside any scale .If you feel your song will sound much better with e.g that A flat during the pre-chorus that isn't in the scale, just do it. Don't think, just play and feel.
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 26 Mar, 2017
Personally, I think the best way to find that out is to analyze the composition [of each song].
Sometimes that requires doing transcription oneself, which is a good way to train one's musical perception. Another option is to look for existing transcriptions as MIDI files (or staff scores) on the web, assume that they're correct enough, and analyze them.
As far as I know, many of Madonna's and Michael Jackson's songs stay in a specific scale for their entire duration. Transcriptions of their older material are almost certainly available somewhere on the web as MIDI files.
If you have a specific example song in mind, perhaps we could take a listen and a look at it.
There are various guidelines in music theory books, based on analyses of previous eras of music. The challenge is that, indeed, anything can sound good depending on the genre, and the music maker, and the listeners.
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- KVRist
- 392 posts since 10 Apr, 2010
I also learned to play keyboard just as scales, and have no deep understanding of theory.
From the smattering of knowledge I have picked up, as I understand it, what you are describing is a key change. Most pop songs will stay in the same scale. Classical music will generally switch keys (sonata form involves transitioning to a different key then transitioning back again). The keys are typically related to one another; they will have overlapping notes, so there will be "bridge" passages between one key and the next that will use only the shared notes so the ear becomes used to those and the transition to the new key does not sound too jarring to the listener.
The "Circle of Fifths" diagram shows the keys that are most closely related to one another (i.e. share the most notes) but there would usually still have to be some transition or the music would sound jarring.
From the smattering of knowledge I have picked up, as I understand it, what you are describing is a key change. Most pop songs will stay in the same scale. Classical music will generally switch keys (sonata form involves transitioning to a different key then transitioning back again). The keys are typically related to one another; they will have overlapping notes, so there will be "bridge" passages between one key and the next that will use only the shared notes so the ear becomes used to those and the transition to the new key does not sound too jarring to the listener.
The "Circle of Fifths" diagram shows the keys that are most closely related to one another (i.e. share the most notes) but there would usually still have to be some transition or the music would sound jarring.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8496 posts since 5 Aug, 2009
thx a lot to you guys! really helpful informations .
1st example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmnCKftMbPw
the scalefinder online says b minor (i dunno how well tehse work out though)
breaks at 2:15 mins & 2:45 mins & 3:43 min
2nd example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFfybn_W8Ak
breaks at 0:44 mins & 1:16 mins & 2:00 mins & 2:20 mins
online scale finder says g minor
breaks i mean harmonychanges?
hey thanks so much! yeah i got 2 examples im unsure if they stay really in one scale all the time, i write down the breaks where im unsure but of course if you got the time and enjoy them you can of course listen through .N__K wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:41 pmPersonally, I think the best way to find that out is to analyze the composition [of each song].
Sometimes that requires doing transcription oneself, which is a good way to train one's musical perception. Another option is to look for existing transcriptions as MIDI files (or staff scores) on the web, assume that they're correct enough, and analyze them.
As far as I know, many of Madonna's and Michael Jackson's songs stay in a specific scale for their entire duration. Transcriptions of their older material are almost certainly available somewhere on the web as MIDI files.
If you have a specific example song in mind, perhaps we could take a listen and a look at it.
There are various guidelines in music theory books, based on analyses of previous eras of music. The challenge is that, indeed, anything can sound good depending on the genre, and the music maker, and the listeners.
1st example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmnCKftMbPw
the scalefinder online says b minor (i dunno how well tehse work out though)
breaks at 2:15 mins & 2:45 mins & 3:43 min
2nd example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFfybn_W8Ak
breaks at 0:44 mins & 1:16 mins & 2:00 mins & 2:20 mins
online scale finder says g minor
breaks i mean harmonychanges?
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 26 Mar, 2017
Quick notes (as always, I appreciate fellow theory fans checking my findings for errors):
Perturbator - Retrogenesis
Appears to be based on D Natural Minor scale, with chords generally conforming to it, but some notes in arpeggios deviating from it. At 2:13 - 2:39 the bass is in Eb (or D#, as FL Studio piano roll shows it by default), which indeed is not part of D Natural Minor scale.
Carpenter Brut - Roller Mobster
The beginning suggests G Natural Minor; however at 0:35, 0:42, 1:33 and 3:01 appears to be the note Gb (or F#), which is the seventh note in G Harmonic Minor scale; it would be part of D major chord (D F# A), which is the "V" chord in G Harmonic Minor.
At 3:31 there appears to be Db (or C#) note which is outside of both G Natural Minor and G Harmonic Minor scales.
I intend to do a rudimentary transcription of bass and basic chords in these, unless someone beats me to it. It'll take me several days until I can post the results.
- KVRAF
- 15277 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland
Those could simply be accidentals.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
My MusicCalc is served over https!!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 8496 posts since 5 Aug, 2009
thx so much!N__K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:19 pmQuick notes (as always, I appreciate fellow theory fans checking my findings for errors):
Perturbator - Retrogenesis
Appears to be based on D Natural Minor scale, with chords generally conforming to it, but some notes in arpeggios deviating from it. At 2:13 - 2:39 the bass is in Eb (or D#, as FL Studio piano roll shows it by default), which indeed is not part of D Natural Minor scale.
Carpenter Brut - Roller Mobster
The beginning suggests G Natural Minor; however at 0:35, 0:42, 1:33 and 3:01 appears to be the note Gb (or F#), which is the seventh note in G Harmonic Minor scale; it would be part of D major chord (D F# A), which is the "V" chord in G Harmonic Minor.
At 3:31 there appears to be Db (or C#) note which is outside of both G Natural Minor and G Harmonic Minor scales.
I intend to do a rudimentary transcription of bass and basic chords in these, unless someone beats me to it. It'll take me several days until I can post the results.
Perturbator - Retrogenesis
so maybe the bass seems to be wrongly played in this section i dunno but D Natural Minor scale is not Normally compatible with Eb as as far as i see is it?
Carpenter Brut - Roller Mobster
WOW, this is complex would you say these scales are just maybe chosen by feel or can you check this progression with some theory knowledge like the circle of fifths? cause i wouldnt know how they come to these 3 scales.
thx a lot!
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- KVRist
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
I'm sure 2:13 - 2:39 is an abrupt switch to Eb minor. Listen to the melody 1 b7... (8va up =>) b6 5 b3 1.Caine123 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:38 pmPerturbator - RetrogenesisN__K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:19 pm Perturbator - Retrogenesis
Appears to be based on D Natural Minor scale, with chords generally conforming to it, but some notes in arpeggios deviating from it. At 2:13 - 2:39 the bass is in Eb (or D#, as FL Studio piano roll shows it by default), which indeed is not part of D Natural Minor scale.
so maybe the bass seems to be wrongly played in this section i dunno but D Natural Minor scale is not Normally compatible with Eb as as far as i see is it?
- Boss Lovin' DR
- 12628 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Key changes..Torchlight wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:29 pm I also learned to play keyboard just as scales, and have no deep understanding of theory.
From the smattering of knowledge I have picked up, as I understand it, what you are describing is a key change. Most pop songs will stay in the same scale. Classical music will generally switch keys (sonata form involves transitioning to a different key then transitioning back again).
Not just classical;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-rB0pHI9fU
Absolute genius songwriting.
- KVRist
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
It's simply common to use both b7 and natural 7 in a minor song. (In the scale-speak, we use Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor alternately.)
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 26 Mar, 2017
That's the thing - in creative composing nothing is strictly "wrong", as such.
The laws of physics and human biology result in the fact that some combinations of intervals will sound more "consonant" while others will sound more "dissonant". Dissonance is sometimes perceives as "wrong" by humans, but on the other hand too much consonance is often uninteresting.
7-pitch scales can be seen as a middle ground between "too boring" and "too complex". They are often a good reference to start from, but in some kinds of music it's quite common to deviate from them, or to think in larger pitch spaces from the beginning.
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 26 Mar, 2017
Yep, I would think so as well. I have to go through it with an analyser for more certainty.shawshawraw wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:54 pmI'm sure 2:13 - 2:39 is an abrupt switch to Eb minor. Listen to the melody 1 b7... (8va up =>) b6 5 b3 1.Caine123 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:38 pmPerturbator - RetrogenesisN__K wrote: ↑Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:19 pm Perturbator - Retrogenesis
Appears to be based on D Natural Minor scale, with chords generally conforming to it, but some notes in arpeggios deviating from it. At 2:13 - 2:39 the bass is in Eb (or D#, as FL Studio piano roll shows it by default), which indeed is not part of D Natural Minor scale.
so maybe the bass seems to be wrongly played in this section i dunno but D Natural Minor scale is not Normally compatible with Eb as as far as i see is it?