I think the touch tactility of the LinnStrument could be improved by giving each row a gentle speedbump shape, so the LinnStrument would look like 8 speedbumps. That would eliminate forward/backward drift of the hands, then you only need to concentrate on maintaining your left/right position.
A little off topic, but I think that the at-a-glace visibility could be improved by coloring the gaps black between the pads. With circular lights and subtle pad borders, the play surface can look like one continuous sheet of rubber. Black borders could make it easier to play and also more enjoyable to watch someone play Linny.
LinnStrument: Playing without looking at hands (Sightreading)
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 29 Aug, 2021
Dirk -- Yes, the whole point is to get tactile feedback without actually touching the surface.
I think these magnetic fields would be too weak, and change far too slowly, to be a problem for the electronics. (The only reason they would change at all is because the ones attached to the fingers would move.)
As for them getting in the way, I'm imagining them mounted to the circuit board, with circular holes cut in the pad surface so it could fit over them. I think they could be small enough so as not to extend any higher than the existing upper surface of the pads. Magnets that small certainly can be found or made; the only question is whether they would have enough field strength for the purpose, and I think that question can probably be answered only by experiment.
As for how to do that experiment, finding the magnets is the easy part: https://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=1 I would try the 1/16"x1/32" ones first, since they're tiny, but if those are too weak, the 1/16"x1/16" might work. If the latter are still too weak, the project is probably doomed -- as you say, we don't want them so big they get in the way. Well, maybe the 1/10"x1/16" would be okay.
Super-gluing a grid of those to a sheet of wood or aluminum or something sounds easy enough. Making the rings sounds harder; some experimentation will likely be required. Aluminum is probably the right material.
Okay, okay, maybe I'm talking myself into trying it, since Roger isn't biting
I think these magnetic fields would be too weak, and change far too slowly, to be a problem for the electronics. (The only reason they would change at all is because the ones attached to the fingers would move.)
As for them getting in the way, I'm imagining them mounted to the circuit board, with circular holes cut in the pad surface so it could fit over them. I think they could be small enough so as not to extend any higher than the existing upper surface of the pads. Magnets that small certainly can be found or made; the only question is whether they would have enough field strength for the purpose, and I think that question can probably be answered only by experiment.
As for how to do that experiment, finding the magnets is the easy part: https://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=1 I would try the 1/16"x1/32" ones first, since they're tiny, but if those are too weak, the 1/16"x1/16" might work. If the latter are still too weak, the project is probably doomed -- as you say, we don't want them so big they get in the way. Well, maybe the 1/10"x1/16" would be okay.
Super-gluing a grid of those to a sheet of wood or aluminum or something sounds easy enough. Making the rings sounds harder; some experimentation will likely be required. Aluminum is probably the right material.
Okay, okay, maybe I'm talking myself into trying it, since Roger isn't biting
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 29 Aug, 2021
TigerBalm: you would have to touch the "speed bumps" to feel them, potentially causing undesired notes to sound. But -- just thinking out loud here -- that gives me another idea. I'm imagining a tuft of soft, fibrous material attached to the center of each pad, springy enough that you could feel your finger touch it before you pressed the pad enough to sound a note, but soft enough to flatten under pressure so it wouldn't interfere with pitch bends etc. Again, just a thought...
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- KVRAF
- 2721 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Sorry I haven’t chimed in. Such discussions often don’t consider the true usefulness after extended use, the high costs, the manufacturing impracticalities or the limited material options available to small businesses. So chiming in often results in taking the time for long discussions through multiple posts in order to educate people about such realities. That said, the ideas presented are engaging and fun food for thought and as is often the case, the reward is in the journey.
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- KVRist
- 173 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
I don’t think touching the speed bumps would be a problem. When I play Linny I’m often resting my fingers/palm on the rubber without playing notes to feel the pad boundaries. The way the great firmware is written there’s just the right thresholds to let you do that.
I like your thought about something fuzzy in the center. It’s a tradeoff between making a feature sturdy enough to feel but soft enough to not impede pitch bends.
The speed bump is a trade off to how easily you can do Y expression. Hopefully that can be managed. Also it would be a visual signifier to audience and new players that rows are fundamentally different than columns.
I like your thought about something fuzzy in the center. It’s a tradeoff between making a feature sturdy enough to feel but soft enough to not impede pitch bends.
The speed bump is a trade off to how easily you can do Y expression. Hopefully that can be managed. Also it would be a visual signifier to audience and new players that rows are fundamentally different than columns.
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- KVRian
- 898 posts since 12 Sep, 2007
Ah if you want small and powerful, the search phrase you're looking for are Neodymium magnets.
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- KVRer
- 5 posts since 29 Aug, 2021
No apology needed! I know you're busy, and I don't doubt that half-baked ideas like this one get kicked around on here all the time. It's certainly your call as to which, if any, you think sound promising enough to pursue.
Maybe I'll put some effort into this myself, but for the moment I'm glad to have given you some fun food for thought.
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- KVRist
- 109 posts since 29 Sep, 2014
Playing the LinnStrument is pretty similar to playing a Button Accordion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic ... _accordion.
On an accordion you can't even look at the buttons (unless you're standing in front of a mirror). For this reason, some buttons are marked on the surface so they can be recogniced in a tactile way. The same goes for the LinnStrument.
For learning 2-handed-playing, it is essential to practice each hand separately. Only after each single hand knows its part 'by hard', it makes sense to practice both hands together.
I took lessons on several instruments (guitar, flute, trombone, french horn, piano, violin, accordion and vibraphone), and my 2 cents are: all these instruments can be played with eyes closed, except the vibraphone. On the vibraphone, there's no direct physical contact with the instrument itself, so I have to look at the bars, at least from time to time. And even on the vibraphone, sightreading is possible.
On an accordion you can't even look at the buttons (unless you're standing in front of a mirror). For this reason, some buttons are marked on the surface so they can be recogniced in a tactile way. The same goes for the LinnStrument.
For learning 2-handed-playing, it is essential to practice each hand separately. Only after each single hand knows its part 'by hard', it makes sense to practice both hands together.
I took lessons on several instruments (guitar, flute, trombone, french horn, piano, violin, accordion and vibraphone), and my 2 cents are: all these instruments can be played with eyes closed, except the vibraphone. On the vibraphone, there's no direct physical contact with the instrument itself, so I have to look at the bars, at least from time to time. And even on the vibraphone, sightreading is possible.
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- KVRist
- 173 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
Just for fun, here is a model of what I have in mind:TigerBalm wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:33 pm I think the touch tactility of the LinnStrument could be improved by giving each row a gentle speedbump shape
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- KVRAF
- 9542 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
It could also go in the other direction - a negative bump, but minimal. I guess its easier to center if the center is lower. The idea isn‘t bad at all… But I would need to feel it and see if long bends are as easy as they are now…
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- KVRian
- 898 posts since 12 Sep, 2007
@Tigerbalm that's interesting, and it looks like your grid part is also raised?
That would prevent long bends and that kills it for me instantly.
I have the old surface with no markers, and I just feel the grid when not looking at my playing.
Seems like a lot of work to solve something that could be substituted with a bit of practice. It seems to me adapting to the device rather than rebuilding it would be more efficient as well.
Good luck,
Dirk
That would prevent long bends and that kills it for me instantly.
I have the old surface with no markers, and I just feel the grid when not looking at my playing.
Seems like a lot of work to solve something that could be substituted with a bit of practice. It seems to me adapting to the device rather than rebuilding it would be more efficient as well.
Good luck,
Dirk
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- KVRist
- 173 posts since 22 Aug, 2019
@TJ thats an interesting idea! A trough instead of a speedbump. That would make it really easy to stay on track while sliding. However I think a trough shape for the rows would prevent you from playing two vertically adjacent pads with one finger, I know some advanced players do that.
@Dirk I think you're seeing an optical illusion. The gaps between the pads are not raised, they're just black color and lower than the pads. Overall the idea is to slide along the crest of the speedbump left/right when doing bends from note to note. Each row is a speedbump (8 total).
I agree you can feel the current pad boundaries already, I can do that but it's tricky for me. The problem with feeling for the boundary of the pad is that it forces you to put your finger in the the non-ideal spot (most of the time). After you feel the edge with your finger you have to carefully jump back to the true center of the pad. It would be nice to have something you can feel that's also where your finger is supposed to be. The speedbump shape at least does that for Y.
You do lose the ability to pitch bend note to note in the Y direciton. Normally that has no impact but you do give up the option to rotate the Linnstrument portrait orientation like Jesse Washmon.
@Dirk I think you're seeing an optical illusion. The gaps between the pads are not raised, they're just black color and lower than the pads. Overall the idea is to slide along the crest of the speedbump left/right when doing bends from note to note. Each row is a speedbump (8 total).
I agree you can feel the current pad boundaries already, I can do that but it's tricky for me. The problem with feeling for the boundary of the pad is that it forces you to put your finger in the the non-ideal spot (most of the time). After you feel the edge with your finger you have to carefully jump back to the true center of the pad. It would be nice to have something you can feel that's also where your finger is supposed to be. The speedbump shape at least does that for Y.
You do lose the ability to pitch bend note to note in the Y direciton. Normally that has no impact but you do give up the option to rotate the Linnstrument portrait orientation like Jesse Washmon.
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John the Savage John the Savage https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=396119
- KVRian
- 866 posts since 28 Mar, 2017
I’m 100% with Dirk on this.
A little elbow grease, as it were, and all this reinventing the proverbial wheel becomes unnecessary, if purely academic, in relatively short order.
Lord knows, there are harder instruments to master being played blind as we speak.
Practice.
Cheers!
A little elbow grease, as it were, and all this reinventing the proverbial wheel becomes unnecessary, if purely academic, in relatively short order.
Lord knows, there are harder instruments to master being played blind as we speak.
Practice.
Cheers!
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- KVRAF
- 2721 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
- Roger Linn Design
Hi all,
It's fun to see these new ideas being discussed, and to see my interest in creating ideal musical interfaces shared by others. Here are a few thoughts that might be helpful.
The LinnStrument playing surface is made from silicone that is formed in a metal mold. The hardness is "40 durometer", which is as soft as the vendor will allow because any softer would tear when removed from the mold. The tooling is expensive, but I've found a low-cost vendor in Taiwan that charged only $4200 to create the mold from my 3D file, and to produce a few samples. Then I place volume orders for a minimum 240 pieces at a time as needed. In order to reduce friction during pitch slides, the vendor coats the raw silicone in a second step with a matte polyurethane non-stick coating.
There is a prototype shop in silicon valley that will charge less to make an acrylic mold and a few samples from your 3D file, but it would still cost around $3000 and wouldn't be suitable for volume production.
Two ideas came to mind to test out how well the speed bump idea would work in practice:
1. 3D-print a small section of it, because 3D printers have a limited print size. I'm not aware of a print material that is soft like silicone, but at least this would allow you to feel the bumps on a hard plastic material.
2. Buy a set of cheap, curved window blinds with slats that are as close as possible to the 17mm width of LinnStrument's note pads. Then glue them to a soft rubber surface so they'll give a little when you press them.
Regarding black coloring between the raised pads, you could try out this idea by carefully coloring in the areas between the pads on a LinnStrument playing surface with a marking pen. A replacement playing surface for the large LinnStrument is only $60, which isn't so much to try out your idea. Unfortunately this idea would be difficult to do in production. First, the silicone that is injected into the mold must be all the same color. So adding the black color would have to be done in a secondary process by screen-printing. However, you can't screen-print onto a surface that isn't flat, so it would be impossible to get the ink down into the gap between the pads. That said, there may an alternate printing method that I'm not aware.
Nice 3D model, Tigerbalm! If you'd like to play around with modifying the actual playing surfaces for LinnStrument or LinnStrument 128, I've attached 3D files for both of them to this post in STEP file format.
By the way, LinnStrument's note pads are 17mm square with a 2mm space between them. The entire silicone sheet is 1.5mm thick with the note pads raised an additional .5mm for a total thickness of 2mm.
It's fun to see these new ideas being discussed, and to see my interest in creating ideal musical interfaces shared by others. Here are a few thoughts that might be helpful.
The LinnStrument playing surface is made from silicone that is formed in a metal mold. The hardness is "40 durometer", which is as soft as the vendor will allow because any softer would tear when removed from the mold. The tooling is expensive, but I've found a low-cost vendor in Taiwan that charged only $4200 to create the mold from my 3D file, and to produce a few samples. Then I place volume orders for a minimum 240 pieces at a time as needed. In order to reduce friction during pitch slides, the vendor coats the raw silicone in a second step with a matte polyurethane non-stick coating.
There is a prototype shop in silicon valley that will charge less to make an acrylic mold and a few samples from your 3D file, but it would still cost around $3000 and wouldn't be suitable for volume production.
Two ideas came to mind to test out how well the speed bump idea would work in practice:
1. 3D-print a small section of it, because 3D printers have a limited print size. I'm not aware of a print material that is soft like silicone, but at least this would allow you to feel the bumps on a hard plastic material.
2. Buy a set of cheap, curved window blinds with slats that are as close as possible to the 17mm width of LinnStrument's note pads. Then glue them to a soft rubber surface so they'll give a little when you press them.
Regarding black coloring between the raised pads, you could try out this idea by carefully coloring in the areas between the pads on a LinnStrument playing surface with a marking pen. A replacement playing surface for the large LinnStrument is only $60, which isn't so much to try out your idea. Unfortunately this idea would be difficult to do in production. First, the silicone that is injected into the mold must be all the same color. So adding the black color would have to be done in a secondary process by screen-printing. However, you can't screen-print onto a surface that isn't flat, so it would be impossible to get the ink down into the gap between the pads. That said, there may an alternate printing method that I'm not aware.
Nice 3D model, Tigerbalm! If you'd like to play around with modifying the actual playing surfaces for LinnStrument or LinnStrument 128, I've attached 3D files for both of them to this post in STEP file format.
By the way, LinnStrument's note pads are 17mm square with a 2mm space between them. The entire silicone sheet is 1.5mm thick with the note pads raised an additional .5mm for a total thickness of 2mm.
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