A question for those who understand how to compose 'classical'/art music

[samatsuperior]

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Thanks in advance for anyone interested in sharing their thoughts on this.

I'm trying to get back into music production as a hobby after several dormant years, and specifically I want to work on writing and producing orchestral music using sample libraries, etc.

I'm slowly re-educating myself in this realm. Presently, I've only got the means for a bread-and-butter starter library (Nucleus), (https://www.audioimperia.com/products/nucleus) but it's more than enough for me right now.

What I'm wondering as I'm discovering how many crazy libraries there are that use various arrangements, combinations, and articulations in wild and creative ways is how essential all these options are to someone who wants to have as close to a 'playable symphony' in their computer.

As an example, I discovered Brass & Wood, (https://www.evolutionseries.com/portfolio/chronicles-brass-and-wood/) and aside from the fact that it sounds good and is interesting, is there any advantage to buying this for someone who already has good solo libraries of these instruments? Couldn't someone just build their own stack of the instruments in this package out of their sample libraries? Is there an advantage to buying such a specialized library-- some sonic alchemy that comes from recording this exact combination together that layering the solo libraries wouldn't accomplish or something?

I'm not trying to be flippant. As I said, I'm a novice and am not very learned in the nuances and complexities of composing for these kinds of instruments. I'll love it if someone can offer some insight into the value of a product like this to someone already armed with ample solo tools.

[DSmolken]

One thing that does matter is that for music meant to be performed in a concert hall, you will need concert hall reverb. If that's"baked" into the samples, it's easiest if they're all recorded in the same space with the same mic setup - so sticking to all Orchestral Tools stuff recorded at Teldex, for example. Dry samples can be blended into those, and for example all my Karoryfer Samples stuff is close miked and dry, so it's doable.

For example this is my Vengeful bass and cello with NI's Cremona violin and viola, with Vengeful violin and viola layered sometimes for the more exotic articulations. I think Nyx uses Precedence to blend these.



Things get harder when trying to blend distant mics recorded in different spaces by different developers, but people do this too.

If you're doing "hybrid" stuff with electronic drums, basses in the center etc. this doesn't matter quite as much.

Also, jazz/pop/R&B instruments are often totally different beasts than the same instrument used in orchestral music, and this is especially true of trumpets and trombones. For non-orchestral uses they'll be close-miked generally, but will have a very different timbre, techniques and approach to vibrato than in an orchestra. Stuff like Sample Modeling can handle both, but most horn libraries will be one or the other.

[BertKoor]

[...] is there any advantage to buying this for someone who already has good solo libraries of these instruments? Couldn't someone just build their own stack of the instruments in this package out of their sample libraries?

I'm glad you asked this question.

Yes, you can get by (actually make fantastic things) with a fairly minimal set of libraries & instruments.

But. The grass on the other side seems always greener. Especially when you're disappointed with your current results. A demo of another library always sounds tempting. You may fall victim to what we call GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

What they don't tell you (and I am telling you now) is that it took the creator of that demo a considerable effort to get the very best out of it. And if you don't do the same, you'll get mediocre disappointing results again, causing you to blame the tools instead of how you use them, and in no time you're shopping for yet another Holy Grail library which should enable you to build that piece of music of your dreams - which ain't going to happen if you don't give yourself some time to learn how to use it properly and get the very best out of it.


Bottom line: invest a considerable amount of time learning to get the best out of whatever your current tools are. Give yourself at least 6 months, perhaps even a year before buying something else.

[Aloysius]

^ 100% great advice. All I can say is follow it!

[DSmolken]

True. Btw, what solo instruments do you have currently?

[samatsuperior]

True. Btw, what solo instruments do you have currently?

Just the sustain and legato solo patches in Nucleus. As I'm discovering, though, the amount of options out there for solo instruments is staggering.

.

Thanks a lot for your response. This is helpful insight for me.

I'm glad you asked this question.

Yes, you can get by (actually make fantastic things) with a fairly minimal set of libraries & instruments.

But. The grass on the other side seems always greener. Especially when you're disappointed with your current results. A demo of another library always sounds tempting. You may fall victim to what we call GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

What they don't tell you (and I am telling you now) is that it took the creator of that demo a considerable effort to get the very best out of it. And if you don't do the same, you'll get mediocre disappointing results again, causing you to blame the tools instead of how you use them, and in no time you're shopping for yet another Holy Grail library which should enable you to build that piece of music of your dreams - which ain't going to happen if you don't give yourself some time to learn how to use it properly and get the very best out of it.


Bottom line: invest a considerable amount of time learning to get the best out of whatever your current tools are. Give yourself at least 6 months, perhaps even a year before buying something else.

This is probably the single-most-helpful offering anyone's given me as I'm learning about composition. This is exactly what I needed to read-- it's altered my perspective on this whole matter. THANK YOU.

[BertKoor]

Good luck, and enjoy!

[jancivil]

the thing is, a very detailed orchestration is not going to be achieved on a single keyboard in real time. The best that can happen is like that Vangelis thing, it's more of a synthesist's performance trip.
So here are two quite different goals. things are articulated in an orchestral situation by many instrumentalists that are quite beyond a sustain patch and a staccato and maybe a pseudo-legato, or even a really excellently scripted library with like a short and a long patch.

the reality is more represented by a SWAM instrument or the older Sample Modeling, or the VSL line with control over every detail.

When you get to where you're making a real production I recommend striving not to mix baked-in room from this room and another room with different character. Some things are so idiosyncratic to the vendor's aesthetic the only thing to do is stick with that room. Some rooms blend very nicely however, with different tells. Berlin Teldex and VSL's Synchron, even as the former is long and narrowish while I'm using the wide and not deep Synchron.
IME nothing blends with the Spitfire original room they love so much, ie., a lot of mud to cut into.

So going with VSL and Orchestral Tools is where I'm at. VSL makes an MIR Pro venue out of the Teldex and a Teldex MIRx venue for the VI Pro product. The latter is hard-wired as to where the instrument locates in the room
But the mics in the OT libraries are not presenting any problem here. I lend some late reflection in a plugin to the OT things so there's a Synchron tail on a usually not-terrifically wet situation. But I like the Surround enveloping in the OT, both their Kontakt and SINE Player lines. But the SINE Creative Tools line uses a LOT of enveloping in the sound design, from "T Rex Classic Studios" which is a mystery studio afaik. It seems deeper rather than wider from here as well.

Orchestration is a life's work. Buy smart and buy once, which may mean buying _not a lot_ for some time, as Bert suggests.
Go to Youtube and find explanations of instruments' articulations, they're all over the place. You could go to a vendor's sites and take notes of what a detailed lib includes and follow up with research. VSL has an Education tab with a whole lot of good information and explanation of the things.

[jancivil]

there's this one guy who's made a convincing ensemble out of SWAM solo instruments. Do not try this at home, it's passing difficult.
One tool that would be pretty good for this though is Izotope Nectar, a preset made to double vocals with more power and control - spread and variance etc - than usual.

[Uncle E]

ProjectSAM Symphobia sounds like a finished product when you play it live. That's the only one that's given me that experience.

ProjectSAM has a "Free Orchestra" that comes with sounds from a bunch of their libraries:

https://projectsam.com/libraries/the-free-orchestra/