Scales - do you change or can you change the scale midsong?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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Hink
Rad Grandad
35002 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:47 am

dont we have a member with that name and spelling?
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vurt
addled muppet weed
86392 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:52 am

Hink wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:47 am
dont we have a member with that name and spelling?
yeah, he worked for nintendo, i just said :P

nice guy. and his gf who he was with at the time was lovely too, and has massive personality :o
hes not been around for years though.

N__K
KVRist
97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 pm

jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:32 am
N__K wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:00 pm
shawshawraw wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:47 pm
Learning from actual music is much much faster with ears in place ;)
I completely agree with the emphasized fact - but speaking from personal experience, attempting to train the wetware does not guarantee success (at least not in full) even if considerable amounts of one's lifetime are spent on the effort :D
Get your ear together or the rest of this is just jargon. There is music few of us will suss by ear alone but we aren't anywhere in the vicinity here.
Been at it for a few decades, still going :)

Suffice to say, some things associated with traditional forms of musicianship I am unlikely to ever be fully capable of. But despite that, I have achieved many of my dreams and goals as a music maker.

Nowadays I try to define my capabilities only in positive terms - what I can do, instead of what I cannot.





Boone777 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:24 am
I use this little reminder for playing around with moods chord change.
Yep, I have somewhat similar associations, though rarely spelled out.

Usually I remember the "feel" of a scale by example tracks which have personal meaning (and thus easily remembered). Same for other musical phenomena.



***



Speaking of which, and continuing the question of chord progression vs. modulation, I wonder what fellows here would say about these:


Jeremy Soule - Secret of Evermore: Pyramid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdTWDNClVco


Simon Robertson - Extreme G: "City 1" (Track 2-1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G200Ve4_XNg



Both are 1990s videogame music (SNES and N64). Former is somewhat melodic, eastern-influenced soundtrack; latter is fast techno, reminding somewhat of early goa/psytrance.

Would you describe these as relying on parallel harmony, or modulations, or something else? Time dimension / rate of changes is relevant especially in the latter case, I think.

shawshawraw
KVRist
235 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada

Post Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:59 am

N__K wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 pm
Jeremy Soule - Secret of Evermore: Pyramid
Sounds to me three harmonies: Fm (ambiguous b6 or 6), Dm (b6 Aeolian imprinted by the previous, although the notes do not define the 6 themselves, either) and C#7b9b13 (effectively harmonic minor on F#)

Interesting sounding! I don't consider them a progression as they're lasting way too long for each of them to establish their own identities.
N__K wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 pm
Simon Robertson - Extreme G: "City 1" (Track 2-1)
A collage of Aeolians ;) The groove is the primary focus though.

N__K
KVRist
97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am

Thanks for checking those :)


I had labeled "Pyramid" with F minor, D minor and C# Phrygian Dominant. To me, the long section with melody is the main / home part of it.

Secret of Evermore - Pyramid - overview of transposition.PNG
Here's a basic MIDI transcription, if anyone's interested:
Secret of Evermore - Pyramid MIDI export.zip







As for Extreme-G - City 1: yep, I too would say it's a collage of Aeolians, although there are some occasional notes which might suggest Phrygian.
Personally, I perceive it as a "progression" in at least some sense - an example of change in transposition becoming the main harmonic idea of the track.

Extreme G - City 1 (T2-1) overview of transposition.PNG
That said, one could also think of C# or F being "home" pitches, which is why I also marked roman numerals treating C# as tonic. Not sure how much sense it makes in this context, though.

MIDI of most of its pitched content:
Extreme G - City 1 MIDI export.zip



For comparison, I perceive something similar happening also in "Duel of the Fates" by John Williams:

https://youtu.be/D_2bluVPsb0?t=38
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BertKoor
KVRAF
13214 posts since 8 Mar, 2005 from Utrecht, Holland

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:39 am

vurt wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:52 am
Hink wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:47 am
dont we have a member with that name and spelling?
yeah, he worked for nintendo, i just said :P

nice guy. and his gf who he was with at the time was lovely too, and has massive personality :o
hes not been around for years though.
He had his name officially chsnged to Haydxn, iirc.
Not posted for 5 years or so, but last logged in in 2019
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12528
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is served over https!!

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vurt
addled muppet weed
86392 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:46 am

BertKoor wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:39 am
vurt wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:52 am
Hink wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:47 am
dont we have a member with that name and spelling?
yeah, he worked for nintendo, i just said :P

nice guy. and his gf who he was with at the time was lovely too, and has massive personality :o
hes not been around for years though.
He had his name officially chsnged to Haydxn, iirc.
Not posted for 5 years or so, but last logged in in 2019
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12528
yup, that's the feller!
im beginning to think, they might mean a different haydxn.

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vurt
addled muppet weed
86392 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:48 am

N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am


For comparison, I perceive something similar happening also in "Duel of the Fates" by John Williams:

https://youtu.be/D_2bluVPsb0?t=38
best few mins of the soundtrack and film.
pity maul was basically a throwaway character though.

N__K
KVRist
97 posts since 26 Mar, 2017

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:20 pm

vurt wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:48 am
N__K wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 am


For comparison, I perceive something similar happening also in "Duel of the Fates" by John Williams:

https://youtu.be/D_2bluVPsb0?t=38
best few mins of the soundtrack and film.
pity maul was basically a throwaway character though.
Totally. Granted, he had an eventful story in Extended Universe, but they could've written him as a long-term antagonist to Obi-Wan and Anakin in the prequel films, instead of introducing new secondary villains in each movie (and mostly throwing them away too).

I'd like to think that in some alternate universe George Lucas hired J. Michael Straczynski to help with continuity in the prequels :D

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vurt
addled muppet weed
86392 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:29 pm

yeah, bringing christopher lee in for a bit part :dog:

although, he did the same thing with boba fett in the original trilogy, thank the stars disney (never thought id say that!) took it off him and gave us the mandalorian to give us more of the bounty hunters 8)
now if they can quickly give us shadows of the empire, before i die, i can go happy :hihi:

lookingforkomplete
KVRer
10 posts since 17 Oct, 2021

Post Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:00 pm

Caine123 wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:33 pm
Thx i see some how to tutorials e.g. rap or hip hop beats, i dunno if there is a difference ;) and they choose a scale and stay in scale.
But i am no good in theory sadly and wonder if a Madonna song, michael jackson etc stay just in 1 scale from beginning to end or if they change too and if so how i know which scale is compatible to another? Sounds really stupid i guess but i mean it for real ;). I am not back at the pc sadly to start my chord progressio to find out if a chord progression stays in a scale or not.
This is usually because rap and hip-hop songs are aiming more for rhythmic simplicity than tonal complexity. Prog-rock songs, for example, utilize multiple changes in scales/keys/tempos, just to change the feeling and emotion of their songs. It depends on your genre, what you aim to convey, etc.

Caine123
KVRAF

Topic Starter

6636 posts since 5 Aug, 2009

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:13 pm

Guys woah thats so massive infos here many many thx!!!! So it seems there is no real rule. So you can go feom a minor to major etc if it fits it fits i guess ;).

Is there some kind of overall overview what scales are emitting which emotions?

Like major is happy, minor for more meöpdic sadness etc? E.g. i struggle still to identify some kind of feeling for these, sure a happy chillout song cant be minor phrygian? A Hypnotized dark beat is mostly minor?
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jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:32 pm

"7-pitch scales can be seen as a middle ground between "too boring" and "too complex"."
This should be seen as a 7 note scale having utterly no attributes per se, past having 7 pitches. Boring and complex are stuff in your head, it doesn't mean anything.

Azbest
KVRist
100 posts since 17 Oct, 2020

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:33 pm

Caine123 wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:13 pm
Guys woah thats so massive infos here many many thx!!!! So it seems there is no real rule. So you can go feom a minor to major etc if it fits it fits i guess ;).

Is there some kind of overall overview what scales are emitting which emotions?

Like major is happy, minor for more meöpdic sadness etc? E.g. i struggle still to identify some kind of feeling for these, sure a happy chillout song cant be minor phrygian? A Hypnotized dark beat is mostly minor?
I stumbled upon an "emotional" description of every major and minor key, but it is from 18th century or something, so with modern tuning it's pretty much obsolete. Entertaining read tho.

https://wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html

jancivil
KVRAF
23335 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:35 pm

N__K wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 pm
jancivil wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:32 am
N__K wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:00 pm
shawshawraw wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:47 pm
Learning from actual music is much much faster with ears in place ;)
I completely agree with the emphasized fact - but speaking from personal experience, attempting to train the wetware does not guarantee success (at least not in full) even if considerable amounts of one's lifetime are spent on the effort :D
Get your ear together or the rest of this is just jargon. There is music few of us will suss by ear alone but we aren't anywhere in the vicinity here.
Been at it for a few decades, still going :)
still have to check an 'analyser' to determine a diatonic scale, right
Hard no to this, the person apt to create music is going to have to trust their ear implicitly.
Last edited by jancivil on Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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