Windows instead of Mac for near future ?

Configure and optimize you computer for Audio.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:32 am

chk071 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:44 am
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:22 am

Microsoft couldn't do that if they wanted to... they don't make the machines...
Thankfully.

Windows 11 already shows sign in that direction... (requirements of TPM 2.0, 8th gen Intel CPU's, or AMD equivalent etc.).
Seems inevitable that they switch to ARM... which will surely be some disruption

Passing Bye
KVRAF
3000 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:37 am

This whole Apple Silicon change was way for quite enough people to say, ok, I had too much tools, now gonna start fresh and just use native stuff as they come along... that's mindset most people have when they switch to Linux to, gonna focus on what I have and make music... But macOS or Linux for anyone that got used to Windows and concern is legacy compatibility, no, if you want to move on, than sure, if you want to get rid of your old habits and accept some new, yeah, but if you want to keep using same plug-ins from Windows and actually keep using same plug-ins over longer period of time, not really the best call...

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:38 am

T-CM11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:03 am
The OP is interested in the M1 for mobility reasons. Battery usage is probably the biggest advantage that (newer) Mac laptops have over Windows laptops. But is the absence of a power outlet while making music an often recurring situation? It isn't for me, ever.
I don't need the battery that much for music, but I have done a lot of location work... photography, video and design and web updates from unpowered locations. Better battery life is a happy thing.

But for music, the big aspect for me is less heat and fan noise!

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:47 am

chk071 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:16 am
True. It's a bit annoying, though, when you can't upgrade your 3 year old computer to Windows 11, just because its CPU is not on Microsoft's awesome list. Yes, you can circumvent that, but, I won't do it, because Microsoft already promised some other snares, like the inability to update unsupported computers. It's really not recommendable, especially when your computer still works fine with Windows 10.
Various choices Apple has made over the past 3-4 years have been in preparation for the move to Apple Silicon. If Microsoft is investing in a move to ARM as well, which seems inevitable since the Apple CPU's have a significant advantage in the mobile market, then MS is going to have to do things like this to get people moving towards that goal.

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T-CM11
KVRAF
2500 posts since 31 Jan, 2003 from Ghent, Belgium

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:53 am

Passing Bye wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:37 am
This whole Apple Silicon change was way for quite enough people to say, ok, I had too much tools, now gonna start fresh and just use native stuff as they come along...
What do you base that conclusion on? Personal experience (social circle)? Mathematical logic?
I work in graphics, where many people still think that Apple computers are better for their purpose... because they were... 20+ years ago. And then there's status, aesthetics, peer pressure, etc. (I'm not saying Apple/MacOS is worse for "graphics", not at all.)

My point? Semantics, I guess. You say "quite enough", I say small minority.

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T-CM11
KVRAF
2500 posts since 31 Jan, 2003 from Ghent, Belgium

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:57 am

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:47 am
Various choices Apple has made over the past 3-4 years have been in preparation for the move to Apple Silicon. If Microsoft is investing in a move to ARM as well, which seems inevitable since the Apple CPU's have a significant advantage in the mobile market, then MS is going to have to do things like this to get people moving towards that goal.
Microsoft won't. The main reason would be their biggest market: business. Why turn their biggest advantage for that market into a reason to look at the competitor.

Passing Bye
KVRAF
3000 posts since 5 Nov, 2014

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:03 pm

T-CM11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:53 am
Passing Bye wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:37 am
This whole Apple Silicon change was way for quite enough people to say, ok, I had too much tools, now gonna start fresh and just use native stuff as they come along...
What do you base that conclusion on? Personal experience (social circle)? Mathematical logic?
I work in graphics, where many people still think that Apple computers are better for their purpose... because they were... 20+ years ago. And then there's status, aesthetics, peer pressure, etc. (I'm not saying Apple/MacOS is worse for "graphics", not at all.)

My point? Semantics, I guess. You say "quite enough", I say small minority.
I'm talking about audio, KVR and other boards I frequent, talking with colleagues, that's the mindset that should keep one on happy side about whole thing, instead of waiting when all your plug-ins will become native and what's next that ain't gonna work... don't get your point at all or you really don't get mine, so gonna repeat, if one is concerned about legacy support he have on Windows, Apple Silicon isn't really gonna provide him the same experience and he will need to adjust his expectations and mindset, with that gonna drop this pointless thread.

chk071
KVRAF
30589 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:05 pm

T-CM11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:57 am
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:47 am
Various choices Apple has made over the past 3-4 years have been in preparation for the move to Apple Silicon. If Microsoft is investing in a move to ARM as well, which seems inevitable since the Apple CPU's have a significant advantage in the mobile market, then MS is going to have to do things like this to get people moving towards that goal.
Microsoft won't. The main reason would be their biggest market: business. Why turn their biggest advantage for that market into a reason to look at the competitor.
Yeah. There's zero sign that Microsoft will go in that direction.

As a normal end consumer, I wouldn't want to sacrifice performance for low energy consumption either. It's great what Apple achieved with the M1, but, it'll always be desktop CPU > mobile CPU.
Plugins and a DAW. On an operating system. Which runs on a computer.

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jamcat
KVRian
1343 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:08 pm

M1 processors are compatible with existing Mac software via Rosetta 2 translation layer.

There real issue to be concerned with is defunct developers/abandonware/whiny developers who don't want to update their code or certificates to meet Apple's requirements. Just look at how many developers still don't support VST3, despite VST2 being a DEAD format for almost a decade.

The biggest fallout from all of this is that M1 and Rosetta can't be mixed in your DAW. If you need to use ANY plugins that aren't M1 native, you will have to open your DAW using Rosetta, even if your DAW is M1 native itself.

So the longer it takes developers to support M1, the longer you have to wait to benefit from the new M1 architecture.

Assess the plugins you use. Are they still being actively developed? Are the developers willing and able to support M1 in a timely manner? If you switch to an M1 Mac, you are going to have to do some housecleaning of dead plugins and stubborn/lazy/incompetent developers. Is that something you can afford to do, or can you just not live without some particular synth that hasn't been updated since 2012?

Vintage hardware may be cool, but vintage software is not.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

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T-CM11
KVRAF
2500 posts since 31 Jan, 2003 from Ghent, Belgium

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:10 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:38 am
T-CM11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:03 am
The OP is interested in the M1 for mobility reasons. Battery usage is probably the biggest advantage that (newer) Mac laptops have over Windows laptops. But is the absence of a power outlet while making music an often recurring situation? It isn't for me, ever.
I don't need the battery that much for music, but I have done a lot of location work... photography, video and design and web updates from unpowered locations. Better battery life is a happy thing.

But for music, the big aspect for me is less heat and fan noise!
Sounds like you made a good choice for those other purposes.
Is less fan noise enough reason if you were to choose now (for the first time) between mac & pc? Enough reason to upgrade your old mac?

Nobody wants a loud laptop, but any other laptop=loud vs. new mac= quiet is a bit overstating it (I'm not saying that you said it like that; however you feel about it personally is valid enough).

User avatar
lb24569
KVRist
40 posts since 12 Mar, 2020

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:25 pm

jamcat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:08 pm
M1 processors are compatible with existing Mac software via Rosetta 2 translation layer.

There real issue to be concerned with is defunct developers/abandonware/whiny developers who don't want to update their code or certificates to meet Apple's requirements. Just look at how many developers still don't support VST3, despite VST2 being a DEAD format for almost a decade.

The biggest fallout from all of this is that M1 and Rosetta can't be mixed in your DAW. If you need to use ANY plugins that aren't M1 native, you will have to open your DAW using Rosetta, even if your DAW is M1 native itself.

So the longer it takes developers to support M1, the longer you have to wait to benefit from the new M1 architecture.

Assess the plugins you use. Are they still being actively developed? Are the developers willing and able to support M1 in a timely manner? If you switch to an M1 Mac, you are going to have to do some housecleaning of dead plugins and stubborn/lazy/incompetent developers. Is that something you can afford to do, or can you just not live without some particular synth that hasn't been updated since 2012?

Vintage hardware may be cool, but vintage software is not.

Exactly this.
Win 10 9900k 32GB RAM | Ableton | FL Studio | S1 | RME Babyface Pro | Yamaha HS8 | MacOS Big Sur | MBP 15" 16GB RAM | Access Virus TI2 | Fabfilter | T-racks | Izotope

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:44 pm

jamcat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:08 pm
The biggest fallout from all of this is that M1 and Rosetta can't be mixed in your DAW. If you need to use ANY plugins that aren't M1 native, you will have to open your DAW using Rosetta, even if your DAW is M1 native itself.
Bitwig can run native and use Rosetta plugins.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:50 pm

chk071 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:05 pm
It's great what Apple achieved with the M1, but, it'll always be desktop CPU > mobile CPU.
For you maybe, but the mobile computer market is bigger than desktop at this point.

User avatar
jamcat
KVRian
1343 posts since 2 Sep, 2019

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:18 pm

pdxindy wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:44 pm
jamcat wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:08 pm
The biggest fallout from all of this is that M1 and Rosetta can't be mixed in your DAW. If you need to use ANY plugins that aren't M1 native, you will have to open your DAW using Rosetta, even if your DAW is M1 native itself.
Bitwig can run native and use Rosetta plugins.
Colour me skeptical. Where did you see this?
It looks like Cult of Bitwig nonsense to me.
THIS MUSIC HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
20856 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:21 pm

T-CM11 wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:10 pm
Sounds like you made a good choice for those other purposes.
Is less fan noise enough reason if you were to choose now (for the first time) between mac & pc? Enough reason to upgrade your old mac?

Nobody wants a loud laptop, but any other laptop=loud vs. new mac= quiet is a bit overstating it (I'm not saying that you said it like that; however you feel about it personally is valid enough).
It is enough reason to upgrade from my current laptop... a maxed 16" MBP. I'm happy with the screen, keyboard, the ports and the capability of the CPU. It just gets so hot and the fans come on all the time. If it weren't for the heat and fans, I would happily keep using my current laptop.

Tests on the 13" M1 MBP put it under max load for 30-60 minutes and no audible fan noise was reported and it was warm, not hot. My iPad Pro is like that. It has no fan, is powerful and it does not get hot. So yeah, I ordered the new M1 Pro 16" MBP specifically for those reasons. We'll see if it lives up to my expectations.

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