Your fave MIDI fx, arp, mapper, mangler, generator, chorder, controller, utility. VST or MFX

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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KVRist
179 posts since 11 May, 2014

Post Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:59 pm

gondii wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:12 am
ValliSoftware wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:47 am

At some point you have to create a song, how would you do that with a "endlessly changing patterns".
The other problem with that is, you lose a pattern you heard because it keeps changing.

Right now, Instacomposer let's you hear a pattern. you like it, work on it, if not, generate a new pattern on all tracks or a individual track.
To me, that is what you need and what Instacomposer has.
I also don't see the problem with just recording the randomized parts.

But I also disagree with the premise that "at some point you have to create a song". I don't always make music with the intention of creating a song, especially not (necessarily) with intro, verse, chorus, etc. where I have to "decide" on one melody or pattern. Sometimes I just want to make music,... perform,... create sounds,... sometimes it's meditative. I might still hit record once I like what is happening, but producing a song doesn't always have to be the point.

So what I would like to use it for is ambient/experimental, generative music. It's less about having a constantly changing melody, but ever changing and evolving elements, usually on the slower side with longer notes. Think Brian Eno for example. There are plenty of midi generators that cater to this approach, like Patter for example or some of the stuff by sonic lab and the plentiful random modulation options in HY-Plugins. Bitwig can be really nice with its modular approach as well (and I could modulate or automate the Instacomposer settings as well).

So with all the randomization options and AI functionality already present, just a little addition would, in my opinion, make Instacomposer not only useful for composition and song writing, but for generative music as well.
ValliSoftware wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:20 am
Because Instacomposer is generating up to 5 tracks, what you loose in this endless random pattern is the ability to randomize a single track but keep the other tracks.
In my mind, this feature would be on a per track basis. You can already randomize tracks independent from each other. So that would be a given I think.
Ah, generative music. You didn't mention this before.
I get into that as well but I use Logic Scripts I wrote to do that. In fact, I use the MIDIFX Modulator in Logic and convert CC to Midi Notes, but using scale Scripters I wrote to bring music tonality back into all those notes. Then I have another script to sync to a pattern, that pattern can be a MIDI drum pattern or a MIDI keyboard playing pattern as well.

Since that's a Modulator, it's always generating random music.
Here's one example of how I did that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJmJpiHtZOw


Instacomposer isn't meant for generative music, hence the name Instacomposer.

KVRAF
1651 posts since 11 Jun, 2005 from Phoenix, Arizona

Post Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:07 pm

ValliSoftware wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:59 pm
Instacomposer isn't meant for generative music, hence the name Instacomposer.
I see Instacomposer as a tool (and I am a fan). As such the user determines the functionality of that tool. With that said, I don't disagree with your sentiment. But I don't see the addition of the randomization functionality taking away from the current premise. In fact I see it as enhancing that process as the end user determines what "is" a composition.

The proposed randomization could happen on certain tracks at the track level. But I could also see it happening on the chord track at the chord level by adding the ability for any/each chord be affected by the randomization setting. And any additional features surrounding that enhancement could make this plugin outstanding. And none of those additions need to take away from current functionality.

Just an opinion during a discussion. Please take it as such...

KVRAF
5410 posts since 24 May, 2004 from square1

Post Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:44 pm

You might pair it with Riffer for randomization.

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KVRist
179 posts since 11 May, 2014

Post Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:50 pm

UncleAge wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:07 pm
ValliSoftware wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:59 pm
Instacomposer isn't meant for generative music, hence the name Instacomposer.
I see Instacomposer as a tool (and I am a fan). As such the user determines the functionality of that tool. With that said, I don't disagree with your sentiment. But I don't see the addition of the randomization functionality taking away from the current premise. In fact I see it as enhancing that process as the end user determines what "is" a composition.

The proposed randomization could happen on certain tracks at the track level. But I could also see it happening on the chord track at the chord level by adding the ability for any/each chord be affected by the randomization setting. And any additional features surrounding that enhancement could make this plugin outstanding. And none of those additions need to take away from current functionality.

Just an opinion during a discussion. Please take it as such...
First, Instacomposer is a great app.

What I like about it is the ability to have different types, Melody, Riff, Ostinato, Rhythm, Bass, Pad and Chord and Instacomposer will make sure all work together when you randomize.

Even though you have a list of chord formulas to choose from, they highlight the ones that you might want to consider before using the other ones.

The issue I had with it is it's limited to 9 bars but since I figured out that I can chain them, I actually created a Logic template of chained Instacomposers to match the default song structure for Logic Drummer.
Now I can apply a song structted drums.

Now again, this is not meant for Generative Music so what I'll do is point one out that does that I have that deals with Generative Music.
Wotja21 from Intemorphic
This app can get extensive when building your own but you have starting templates to start with.
It has the ability to generate a WAV of your project as well as MIDI.

If you say you want a 20 min generated song, since that's how you specify how long a song is, you can generate a 20 min WAV and then generate a 20 min MIDI file as well.

KVRian
916 posts since 8 Oct, 2019

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:00 am

I also think that Instacomposer is a great plugin. I personally would just wish it has a feature to continuously randomize the patterns or create variety (also useful for drums). Since all the main features are there already, I feel like it could be a relatively easy addition without impeding on any of the other functions.
ValliSoftware wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:50 pm
Now again, this is not meant for Generative Music so what I'll do is point one out that does that I have that deals with Generative Music.
Wotja21 from Intemorphic
This app can get extensive when building your own but you have starting templates to start with.
It has the ability to generate a WAV of your project as well as MIDI.

If you say you want a 20 min generated song, since that's how you specify how long a song is, you can generate a 20 min WAV and then generate a 20 min MIDI file as well.
Wotja is interesting, I did look at it before just a little bit. But the windows version seems to be standalone only. So I'd have to create the patterns and then import the static midi. Which seems to slightly defeat the purpose if I'm not mistaken...

Edit: I see it uses midi out,... I'll give it a try...
Edit: OK, got it set up and working, thanks for the tip.. I'll try to dive in. Seems very useful.
Last edited by gondii on Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
5410 posts since 24 May, 2004 from square1

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:09 am

Perhaps the Go button could be triggered by a key switch (C0 or G8?). It would randomize anywhere on the timeline of any track where the key switch is located. It might need to be set up so the KS makes no sound (doesn't act like a note).

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KVRAF
5873 posts since 9 Dec, 2008 from Berlin

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:36 am

Yeah, but that wouldn't allow for subtle changes.
Same issue as with riffer when you use their continuous randomisation and some other similar tools.
I personally prefer it a lot when the basic structure stays the same, but on each Iteration you get variations (more or less drastic, following some settings) without losing the original theme or melody.
And in that realm, a musical, "intelligent" variator, which knows about the other tracks and keeps coherence would be quite interesting.
So more a kind of "playing around a theme", like one does when improvising instead of a completely different thing each time.
And I do not see anything wrong with InstaComposer getting more open in this direction.

Don't get all literal about "how a tool is supposed to be used" or what it's name is - that may be the initial direction, but if the developer is open minded, all kinds of things can be done when there is demand.
ATM the scope is relatively limited (as are many WA tools, they are more about quantity than quality or deep refinement over time in most cases), but I got very surprised by for instance Scaler (not from WA), which at the beginning was rather "single minded" but in the meantime got a much wider scope and continues to grow beyond anything I'd have expected and became very well suited as a tool in the generative music toolbox.

So yeah, it will mainly depend on where WA is willing to go with it and if they keep at it - which I'm doubtful about from their track record so far but hey, surprises can happen... ;-)

Cheers,

Tom
"Out beyond the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I’ll meet you there." - Rumi
ScreenDream|Thomas Helzle 8) Twitter

KVRAF
1811 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:29 am

ThomasHelzle wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:36 am
Yeah, but that wouldn't allow for subtle changes.
Same issue as with riffer when you use their continuous randomisation and some other similar tools.
I personally prefer it a lot when the basic structure stays the same, but on each Iteration you get variations (more or less drastic, following some settings) without losing the original theme or melody.
And in that realm, a musical, "intelligent" variator, which knows about the other tracks and keeps coherence would be quite interesting.
So more a kind of "playing around a theme", like one does when improvising instead of a completely different thing each time.
And I do not see anything wrong with InstaComposer getting more open in this direction.

Don't get all literal about "how a tool is supposed to be used" or what it's name is - that may be the initial direction, but if the developer is open minded, all kinds of things can be done when there is demand.
ATM the scope is relatively limited (as are many WA tools, they are more about quantity than quality or deep refinement over time in most cases), but I got very surprised by for instance Scaler (not from WA), which at the beginning was rather "single minded" but in the meantime got a much wider scope and continues to grow beyond anything I'd have expected and became very well suited as a tool in the generative music toolbox.

So yeah, it will mainly depend on where WA is willing to go with it and if they keep at it - which I'm doubtful about from their track record so far but hey, surprises can happen... ;-)

Cheers,

Tom
Riffer allows for stabilising parameters quite a bit between iterations. You can lock notes, rests and so forth. You can have user defined scales as well, by making them chords you can do vaguely randomised arpeggios and switch netween using CCs

KVRian
1052 posts since 17 Jul, 2016 from Wales, UK

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:47 am

I like using Harvest for that - being able to set which notes in the pattern get randomized, which notes the random selection is made from (and their probability of selection), probability of rests etc. Makes it easy to have a "locked" framework but continuously randomize the rest from a note selection.

Just need to trigger the randomization via host automation.

KVRist
137 posts since 16 Nov, 2009

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:01 am

Still haven't found a nice workflow with adding my own chords in instacomposer. Can't seem to input chords longer than one bar and there's no option to clear a slot. Also miss the possibility to preview a chord, now I have to generate the whole chord progression first. Wish I could just input a chord with my midi keyboard. It's seriously taking me 15 minutes to input a chord progression now. Has anyone found a decent workflow for this?

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KVRAF
6378 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:08 am

In my max patches I made a loop of Midi notes and each iteration one randomly chosen note gets changed, and after a while it would scramble all of them and start a new loop. I found the result always appealing…

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KVRist
179 posts since 11 May, 2014

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:06 am

What I wanted to do is link Hexachords Orb and Instacomposer but couldn't figure out a direct way but I found an indirect way from Instacomposer to Hexachords Orb
By doing this, now I can play and hear all the tracks from Instacomoser and all the Orbs, Chord, Bass, Melody and Arp.

What you need to do is, create a Chord Track in Instacomposer, then export that as a Midi file.
I'd say drag and drop but that doesn't work all the time.
After you export, then in Orb Chords drag that into Orb Chords, harmonize, once you do that you have a indirect link where both can play at the same time.
Now you can play and generate individual items in both Orb and Instacomposer at the same time.
I'll make a video on that.

KVRist
170 posts since 13 Jul, 2005 from Longview, WA

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:51 pm

@ValliSoftware - that's how I use the Orbs & Instacomposer together as well. I do wish Instacomposer would be able to add drag n drop of an external chord track. The adding/editing the chord track in Instacomposer is not my fave (I feel you @Mplay!) I think, like most of you, I mix and match these types of plugins depending on my mood/final goal.

Also, I am with @ThomasHelzle when it comes to the 'generative side' of things. I do like to have some control over the amount of randomness. I do love the randomness found in say Riffer or Chord Jam (both by Audio Modern) but I do like being able to keep a basic framework in tact and work around a few of the parameters.

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KVRist
179 posts since 11 May, 2014

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:39 pm

Here's the video.
A workaround on getting both Hexachords Orb and Instacomposer to play together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Qu7LvEpbE

If you're a Logic Pro X user, with all the MIDIFX's that come with Logic, you can further modify what's coming in before it goes to the destination instrument. I show that as well.

KVRAF
5410 posts since 24 May, 2004 from square1

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:12 pm

Nice progression and feel.
Are these the chords?
Csus2P11M13
GmP11M13
FM7M9
Gm
Dmb7
Amb7P11
Bb
Dmb7
(What does the P11 designate?)

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