Windows instead of Mac for near future ?

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KVRAF
11369 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:38 am
BONES wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:23 pm
Passing Bye wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 am
Apple ecosystem is for folks who are willing to left behind old tech from time to time and embrace changes much faster.
That would explain why Mac was at Version 10 for 19 years. It got so embarrassing for them they changed the name of the OS to make it seem like it wasn't the same old shit it had always been, minus a lot of stuff you may once have relied upon. And don't even ask me how version 10.15 can be 18 years newer than version 10.2, but it is.
this is literally one of the stupider gestures I've seen on the subject. You're taking a number, 10, leaving off all the increments between ".2" and ".15" deliberately to make a diss (or you're just dense). Is being scrupulous at all quite beyond you, or are you constitutionally incapable of checking? EG: "OSX.15" has seven versions. So is the story supposed to be Apple updates far too frequently or far too infrequently, then? Incoherent. You've asserted both of these in this thread!

Who would ask you anything about anything, you're unable to think really simple things through like COUNTING. :lol:
But you're the one intelligent person here in your legend. One who cannot consider maybe the Mac at your day job is poorly maintained and obsolete, but this is alway central to your bogus story.
Hey! Lay off. It’s not his fault that the school system didn’t teach decimals! :lol:
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

KVRist
294 posts since 18 Jul, 2021

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:18 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm
Hey! Lay off. It’s not his fault that the school system didn’t teach decimals! :lol:
he's using decimals correctly. the problem is that they aren't decimals.

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GRRRRRRR!
12567 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:41 pm

rezoneight wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:22 am
One only need to go look at the wikipedia article on Mac OS releases if one doesn't know.
You are not seriously suggesting that the need to read Wikipedia to understand how version numbers work is a perfectly normal part of everyone's day, are you? It really just proves my overall point, which is that not only will the Apple faithful put up with having the company piss on their heads and tell them it's raining, they will actually defend Apple's right to piss all over them, while they open wide to get a big mouthful. If it wasn't so desperately f**king sad it would be hilarious.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

KVRist
134 posts since 19 Aug, 2021

Post Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:23 pm

Yea I just retired my 2012 MBP for an M1. Apple really shat on my head with 10 years of free updates for their OS and a computer that still has a resale value of 250€.

KVRian

Topic Starter

572 posts since 24 Apr, 2008 from USA

Post Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:19 am

BONES wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm
Now, if you'd like a list of valid reasons to switch, I am more than happy to provide a long one.
I do. Since I’m on the fence right now between windows and Mac
win10 x64. cubase 10 x64.
gigabyte z390 gaming x, i7-8700k, 32GB,
2x 2TB m.2 nvme SSD, 1x 2TB sata ssd.

KVRian

Topic Starter

572 posts since 24 Apr, 2008 from USA

Post Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:26 am

Tronam wrote:
Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:26 pm
this list
Thanks. In that list you mentioned that logic supports x86 and c64 plugins via bridge ? Is that so ? I thought they dropped x86/32bit plugins support completely
win10 x64. cubase 10 x64.
gigabyte z390 gaming x, i7-8700k, 32GB,
2x 2TB m.2 nvme SSD, 1x 2TB sata ssd.

KVRian
622 posts since 18 Feb, 2004

Post Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:45 am

BONES wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:41 pm
rezoneight wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:22 am
One only need to go look at the wikipedia article on Mac OS releases if one doesn't know.
You are not seriously suggesting that the need to read Wikipedia to understand how version numbers work is a perfectly normal part of everyone's day, are you? It really just proves my overall point, which is that not only will the Apple faithful put up with having the company piss on their heads and tell them it's raining, they will actually defend Apple's right to piss all over them, while they open wide to get a big mouthful. If it wasn't so desperately f**king sad it would be hilarious.
No I'm suggesting that you read Wikipedia to understand why things don't line up in time the way you've determined they should. Do you really think people give a damn about this stuff? And why do you? You want to turn this versioning thing into some religious nonsense when I simply am telling you go look at the timeline and you'll see how the numbering system worked. What's desperately f**king sad here is your insistence on acting like the village idiot and being proud of it, constantly showing it off like a badge of honor. I'm pretty sure in real life you're really not this stupid. Ignorant yes, but not stupid.

Let me clue you in a bit here. Versioning of software, as practiced by software companies for years is called semantic versioning ("how version numbers work"). https://semver.org. Apple didn't follow semantic versioning with the naming (and I assume the real internal numbering system as well. no idea and don't care) just like about 5 billion other products (Google Chrome, Firefox, the Java programming language, etc, etc).

Tell us your true feeling about Microsoft's "versioning" BONES. But let me give you a hint: its a lot MORE cocked-up. How about Windows 7 who's actual version number was 6.1? Or Windows 8 (v 6.2). I mean how the f**k did we take 7 years to go from v 5.0 to 5.2 in Windows (Windows 2000 thru XP. Lets not forget here that 2000 was a server OS and XP was a end-user OS)?

Of course the funny thing is even if Apple were following true semantic versioning rules that still doesn't mean things would line up with whatever cocked-up scheme you've got in your head which seems to be time-based.
And don't even ask me how version 10.15 can be 18 years newer than version 10.2, but it is.
Answer: version numbers have nothing to do with time, which is why it took 7 years for Microsoft to go from 5.0 to 5.2. Answer 2: Read the wikipedia article and see the release timeline.

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GRRRRRRR!
12567 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:56 pm

TS-12 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:19 am
I do. Since I’m on the fence right now between windows and Mac
OK, since you're on the fence, let me give you my perspective as someone who has used both Mac and PC for my work as a broadcast designer over the last 20 or so years.

The TL;DR version is easy - I've used both at work and I used to always include MB Pros in my short list when I was buying a new laptop for my own use but they never stacked up against the PC opposition, so I've always ended up choosing a PC. I stopped including them when Apple decided one USB port was plenty.

Which leads me into my first point, which is that the whole Apple ecosystem functions on the principle that Apple knows what you need better than you do. So they took out all the extra USB ports because they decided, on your behalf, that you didn't need them any more. They do this a lot. Probably the biggest one was for Catalina, when they decided on your behalf that you no longer needed to run 32 bit applications and, therefore, you didn't need it in the OS any more. So they took it out, just like that. The other big one for my work was that they dropped a video codec that absolutely everyone in our industry uses all the time, which made it much, much harder to preview videos than it used to be. The stupidity of that was that one of the best things about working on a Mac was how seamless it was to preview videos in Finder, compared to the clunky experience in Explorer on Windows. Now the experience is pretty much the same.

Now, you might think that stuff doesn't matter - you don't use any 32 bit software any more, you don't have any old videos lying around and one USB port is plenty for your needs - but who's to say what the next thing they might decide to get rid of will be? It establishes a pattern of behaviour where they have shown that they will ditch anything from their OS if they think it will save them a few bucks in development costs, regardless of the huge inconvenience it might cause their users.

To be clear, Microsoft have also done that to me over the years, first with Zune and then with Windows Phone/Mobile, but they learned their lesson when it comes to Windows after the Start button fiasco in Win8 and showed a willingness to admit their mistake and reinstate things if users complain loudly enough. In my book that makes them the lesser of two evils.

MacOS itself is annoying to work with. It's window management is terrible. Sometimes an error message might pop up, say a missing file or plugin message, and be accidently covered by another window before you notice it. Because macOS treats every window separately, it's relatively easy for an error message to end up behind the application window that spawned it, which makes it appear that the application has stopped responding. I have on many occasions forced an application to close, only to discover a simple error message behind it that was causing it to appear frozen. And yes, it has caused me to lose work a few times.

Then there is the matter of getting the right set-up. If you are a PC user, you don't restrict yourself to a single brand, do you? You look at the dozens and dozens of options available to you and pick the one that best serves your needs. e.g. This is an extreme example but my current laptop has two screens and the keyboard is at the front of the chassis, which I find unbelievably useful because it allows me to set up my MIDI controller in front of the laptop without having to reach any further to get to the keyboard than I would with a conventional laptop. It's a set-up that I don't think I could live without now that I am used to it. In the broader context, you can get exactly the set-up you are after - the screen size and type you want with the processor you want, the exact amount of RAM you want, the exact amount of storage you want and the exact graphics card you want. That means you aren't paying for anything you don't need, whereas with Apple, you'll find that if you want a particular processor you will need to get a 15" laptop when all you really wanted was a 13" model, and stuff like that.

I have to go and join a meeting now but that should give you some stuff to think about.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

KVRist
56 posts since 10 Mar, 2009 from Australia

Post Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:52 pm

Bones thanks for taking the time to give the background of your no Apple attitude. The codec issue sounds like it was the real killer for you in your line of work - as a matter of interest which one was it?
I also scratched my memory for a 1 USB model from Apple what was that?
And finally, I would add the comment that although Apple did get rid of 32bit application support they did give about ten years notice that they were doing it.

KVRian

Topic Starter

572 posts since 24 Apr, 2008 from USA

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:46 am

Thank you @BONES. Your post is very helpful
win10 x64. cubase 10 x64.
gigabyte z390 gaming x, i7-8700k, 32GB,
2x 2TB m.2 nvme SSD, 1x 2TB sata ssd.

KVRAF
23266 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:56 am

I'm not a fan of Apple as an entity and many things they do irritate the hell out of me. But I have not had my head pissed on. Cubase blacklists more than the OS does at this point.
Moved to Big Sur from Catalina last week, seamless, I didn't have to do a single thing. Under Catalina was exactly the same as under Sierra in 2018 with new version numbers. I lost Kore 2 at that juncture, discontinued in 2011.

Somone pointing out you need to look at version numbers some kind of way proves yer point regarding some Stockholm Syndrome psychological issue we all must have? That's what's desperate. The goalpost was there's a difference of "13" only, over 19 years, when the actual number is_another_number, but no, shift that to where the real point - as always - is the deranged narrative about people on the internet who do something you don't approve of in their consumption of products. :lol:

And, again, is it that they push the OS past what's viable, ie. too much action, or is it you wanted to show inaction in a big way? :idiot:

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KVRAF
1921 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Seattle, WA - USA

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:01 am

The amount of cumulative energy Bones has expended over the past decade in Mac threads could power a small city.

KVRAF
23266 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from not here

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:31 am

I moved from a Pentium 4 box to OSX on the PPC around the beginning of 2006. The first version on that computer was OSX.2, and I think the last version of it. Didn't do anything DAW-oriented til then, on the last version of OSX.3. So, it was less trouble than XP on that box, since turning off many (or really most connectivity) services was the optimization routine for the windows, a simple one-stop daemon in the OSX.3, "Process Wizard". Fact. Both systems underperformed for what we do. It was a bit better under OSX, most probably because it's not made to do all that business connection with all of that running in background.

Skipped "Tiger". Did Leopard and Snow Leopard, stayed on SL for several yrs past its final version, skipped Lion, took on Mountain Lion because of a Kontakt update I needed for a certain libary I'd coveted. Skipped the next 3, skipped Mojave. So there are some things a windows users puts up with I don't have to, long story short. The worst it gets here is the OS prompting me to update and to log into Apple all the time (I don't have devices to sync so generally FO to that). It's been rational decision-making based in facts, as one does. Who's buying a story about a computer you don't even adminstrate yourself, d00d. Yer day job, lol. I could tell the story about the yellow police tape they put around all the windows computers in the computer lab at U of Arizona after Vista was put on 'em in '08, and how they had some old Macs which didn't run the same things. You lack the first clue how to manage an argument, BONES. The look of a snide guy above everybody else mocking them is not traveling. You're the idiot.

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GRRRRRRR!
12567 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:20 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm
this is literally one of the stupider gestures I've seen on the subject.
It is if you a) don't read it in context and/or b) lack a sense of humour.
rACatkvr wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:52 pm
Bones thanks for taking the time to give the background of your no Apple attitude. The codec issue sounds like it was the real killer for you in your line of work - as a matter of interest which one was it?
I also scratched my memory for a 1 USB model from Apple what was that?
And finally, I would add the comment that although Apple did get rid of 32bit application support they did give about ten years notice that they were doing it.
The codec is Quicktime Animation, which is about the only lossless codec that was still able to offer some file compression. At work we have about 6TB of stock video that is mostly encoded with it.

The thing to note with Apple giving notice of the end of 32 bit support is that Catalina still caused massive headaches for a lot of users. And, even so, what if you have old projects you may want to use again somewhere down the line? With Windows, we can still fire up our old 32 bit DAW, replete with all our old plugins, and prep those projects before we move them up into our newer 64 bit system, which makes it easy to decide to play an old song we may not have played for 10 years. If we were on Mac, we'd have had to either draw a line under our first four albums or go to the trouble of prepping all 50 or so songs, just in case we might want to play them again. That would have been a massive undertaking for little or not benefit to us.

The other point I made, which you seemed happy to ignore, is who knows what they might decide to do without next? Look at how they left so many professional video editors high and dry when they decided to turn Final Cut Pro into a consumer app. 10-15 years ago FCP was used in just about every broadcast or post production house I know of and every editor I know used it exclusively at home. Today absolutely nobody uses it any more because Apple decided those user's needs didn't matter any more. Who's to say Logic or Core Audio isn't going to be next? Given their history, it's a gamble.
NOVAkILL : Zenbook Duo, Core i7, 16GB RAM, Win10(64), Evo8 | Studio One | JP6K, Union, Hexeract, bx_oberhausen, Odyssey, TRK-01, Vacuum Pro, Invader, Concept, GR-8, Thorn, Equator, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro Desktop, Uno, Rocket.

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KVRAF
4287 posts since 29 Sep, 2010 from Maui

Post Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:40 pm

I was pretty apprehensive about upgrading to win 10 after 5 years (or whatever) of putting it off.
In the end, it's fine, not overly different than win 8 in practice. Of course there are some annoying
things, but also improvement over prev. versions of windows (imo). In the end it is absolutely not
a big deal. I expect it would be pretty much the same with win 11.

I'd like to get a new mac at some point, but it will never replace my windows machines for very much
at all I expect. Personally, beyond the pro-level creative usage, imo macs are pretty boring for general
computing stuff. :shrug:

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