SX 3 vs. Logic 7

[deggy]

I currently own a 1.7gighrtz pc with cubase SX 1.06, Reason 2.5, Finale 2004, Reaktor 4, Battery, MOTU 828 mk 2 etc.

I will eventually have the money to upgrade my setup. Should I switch to Mac and get Logic Pro 7? However, I need to know if the switch is really worth the money and effort. I like really low latencies (2 to 4 ms). I need to know if Logic 7 on a Mac is that much more efficient than sx3 on a pc. How many softsynths are you all able to load simultaneously in sx3 with low latencies?

I also seldom use any of the plugins that are bundled with sx because they are (for the most part) pretty terrible. One benefit about the switch to Logic 7 is that it comes with a whole variety of softsynths that aren't available for sx.

I have heard that Logic 7 is ridden with all kinds of bugs. This worries me a lot. Another thing that worries me is the fact there isn't a Logic 7.1 or even a 7.01 update after a month of complaints. Now I know that there are a number of professionals who use logic religiously and they obviously can't tolerate a substandard/buggy application. So, are these people upgrading to Logic 7? Is logic as buggy as people say? Would I really just be better off to upgrade to a top-of-the-line pc and upgrade my host to SX 3?

Any feedback would be helpful.

oh, and i'm not that put off by logic's lack of pdc. Most of the pdc stuff i do happens in a latter stage of production. I am also willing to lose a few vst plugs in the transition if necessary.

Thank you for the help

[deggy]

oh and ableton live isn't an option right now because i like to be able to switch time signatures mid-tune. According to Ableton Tech support, this feature is currently not implemented though it likely will be in a later version.

[Sascha Franck]

It's a matter of what you need, really.
What you get is an IMO partially brilliant sounding package of plugins that will NEVER (and I mean it, NEVER) be the cause of any crash (apparently with L7 there's quite some other dubious things crashing it though).
In case you don't have much of the plugins delivered allready, it might even justify the high price you gotta pay for a G5 DP (and you don't want anything else as an "upgrade").
In case you don't *exactly* need all the plugins, personally I wouldn't buy a Mac, especially since you're allready familiar with SX, which is just running as well under Windows.

Latency per se can go a bit lower on Macs, especially when using native hardware (which is nice in case you're using, say, a Powerbook), but in case your card has got proper ASIO drivers, it'll be just the same on both Macs and PCs.

However, apart from the plugins I can't see much of a reason to get L7 at the expense of having to buy a G5.
For me it'd be another thing (and I'm allready trying to save up some money), because I'm more or less some expert Logic user, but I would do the switch a) because of Logics (IMO) way superior "ergonomics", b) because I need to be familiar with it for certain other reasons.

Let me put it the other way around: If I were familiar with SX allready (and happy with it handling all sorts of things), if I had the main plugins I'd like to use allready, I defenitely wouldn't go that way.
You don't win much else by getting a Mac. There's less plugins (both free and commercial), there's some great apps not being existant on Macs at all (in my case Battery and DR-008) and Logic itself so far hasn't shown its benefits from being mady by Apple yet.
SX 3 has some options you won't find in Logic too, such as full PDC (I don't care about it much either though), good timestretching and warp audio - which are really nice one you work a lot with audio. Personally (even if I don't use them much), I also like MIDI plugins - quite some fun.
Also, audio performance per se is lousy on stock Macs, or let me say, it's lousy with L6/7. SX (on both PCs and Macs) is performing a LOT better. Might not be that important though, unless you're permanently dealing with 50+ audio tracks in 24bit.

Bottom line: If you REALLY want a LOT of Logics plugins, if you really love it's ergonomics (which you most likely don't as you're not using it allready), go for it.
I can't see much further reasons - unless you need to be compatible with other Logic users.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Sascha's advice is very reasonable, and I agree with most of it.

Quick correction to start off: Battery is available for mac. All the NI plugs are. There are MIDI plugins in Logic, though they're not accessed the same way. They must be configured in the Environment.

I was using cubase before, and like you never touched the stock cubase plugins except for occasional use of the A1. Logic's plugs are much more useable and if you get logic pro you're getting a LOT of very useable instruments. The only one that I've heard about that's buggy is Ultrabeat, and i'm sure this will be fixed in the next update. I've heard people say that the quality and number of the plugins alone is worth the switch. Also, plug-ins that correctly conform to the AU spec display actual parameter values(so for example, your filter cutoff automation is displayed in Hz) in Logic.

CPU efficiency seems comparable between Cubase and Logic, but redraws seem faster in Logic and this makes Logic feel more responsive. I've heard this issue is due to be sorted out in OS X 10.4 in a few months though(some of the graphics calls that cubase uses are optimized in 10.4). Apparently dual G5s rip through audio with Logic. I have a single processor G5 so can't compare dual processor optimization between the two programs.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. If you have some plugins that you rely on and they're not available for mac then that's an issue. The so-called lack of plugins available for mac is not an issue though. I know too many people who have more plugins at their disposal than they know what to do with. But if you're going to spend assloads of money you don't want to be caught with your pants down.

[Sascha Franck]

There are MIDI plugins in Logic, though they're not accessed the same way. They must be configured in the Environment.

Well, unfortunately, environment objects used as MIDI plugins (apart from, say, the chord memorizer) are still working lousy with Logic. Logic needs to be in play mode for the arpeggiator, delay lines and whatever to take effect - which isn't necessary with "true" MIDI plugins. And even in play mode they often don't work fine - but maybe that's been adressed with L7, haven't had an occasion to try yet.

Apparently dual G5s rip through audio with Logic

Well, as said, audio performance is bad. Way worse than on my 5y old Athlon 1GHz. So it really depends whether you need it (at least until Apple will sort that thing out).

[dreammaka]

I used to have pentium4 1.6ghz PC with Cubase SX2.

it was getting old and I needed better computer so...

this time I took risk and got the G5DP.

I bought logic 6 pro and I just installed my Cubase SX2.

but after a while I don't use Logic anymore.

I'm so used to Cubase that logic just won't make any sense.
I like Logic's plug-ins but I can live without those.

so.. You don't have to get logic.

you can get mac and still work with cubase.

[Sascha Franck]

dreammaka, may I ask why you bought a Mac in the first place?
Really, no other Mac-bashing-fest intended, but personally I could only see one single reason to buy a Mac, and that's running Logic on it.
Has that been your initial reason and you returned to Cubase just after that or is there anything else?

And further, what do you prefer in SX over Logic?

[machinesworking]

Personally I think it would be best to find a Logic user you know with L7 that is willing to throw it at you a bit, then decide.
I came from Digital Performer to Logic, and took a long hard look at Cubase 5 before buying Logic. Cubase is similar to DP, so I was up and running in it soon enough, but I just like the way Logic worked. It isn't built to get you going today, as people are quick to point out, it's a bit different that way, it's more like after a month you'll be doing things quicker than in another DAW, not better mind you, just quicker.
Everything about Logic is geared towards doing hard editing while the sequencer is running, so it tends to respond to abuse in my experience, better than Cubase 5 or DP did on a mac. Logic is about 30 to 40% more CPU friendly than any other DAW on a mac as well.

I would however, if you do decide to get L7, wait until 7.1! NEVER jump to a new platform, and use a point zero release!

You will by virtue of Murphys Law be blessed with every small bug that anyone ever reported about said release, in one solid lump, as a gift from Darwin.

Anyway I really like Logic, great part about you switching is you could still have a PC DAW with SX on it! One of these days I would like to be cross platform like that! My only complaint with Logic is it is not Live 4. So I write in Logic and port to Live 4 for performances.

[ajaysongs]

Considering the sort of money you'd be spending and looking at what you already have, upgrading to SX3 and maybe getting NI's Komplete could be your answer. Both of these upgrades can be installed on mac and pc so if you do switch platform, you haven't lost anything. There are a number of third party plugs that can sort out reverb, compression etc.

I'm using Logic 7 and SX3 on a dual G5 and both are excellent. I don't find Logic "riddled with bugs" but it does have a "first version" feel at times - quirks that an update will iron out. This seems to happen with all sofware.

Pro users will of course raise the issues/bugs, but will also be adept at finding workarounds. I had to use Logic 6 recently to complete a single because a plug I was using has yet to be updated for use in 7. Should you upgrade to SX3, keeping your current version may be a good move ... just in case.

[machinesworking]

SX 3 has some options you won't find in Logic too, such as good timestretching and warp audio - which are really nice one you work a lot with audio.

Also, audio performance per se is lousy on stock Macs, or let me say, it's lousy with L6/7. SX (on both PCs and Macs) is performing a LOT better. Might not be that important though, unless you're permanently dealing with 50+ audio tracks in 24bit.

OK with the first part, I'm not convinced that SX has a better timestretching algorithm than Logic and Apple loops, ( f**king hate that idiotic name BTW! sounds like a breakfast cereal!!) ???

I haven't had any problems with audio performance that I've noticed, what do you mean by this?

[dreammaka]

I go to a music school (I won't say the name) and
we use mac in our school. so.. as a PC musician I had a lot of
difficulty bring in my homeworks and other stuff.
I had to convert all my Cubase works to DP,Logic file to
show to the teachers ifI was working at home.
I don't like to sit in the computer lab at school to do music work.
and the teachers only want the files in Logic or DP


Peak and, logic, was the main reason
I got mac, becuase I needed them for this semester.

as I said before I had to use logic for this semester and
later ones, but it just don't make much sense to me
so I just use cubase SX as my host and logic for school works.

I was long time PC user myself and I loved my PC
(I build them myself) but once I was expose to OSX,
I love that OS.
that was another reason I moved to mac.



oh... I was the one of the guy who think using mac was total
waste of money and mac was for idiots who can't configure
computer themself. SORRY, but after using Mac...
It has it's own attractions. now I like both.
I know I spend more money on mac than PC but
this time I didn't have to worry about which components to
buy for the new PC. that was really time saving.

[Sascha Franck]

OK with the first part, I'm not convinced that SX has a better timestretching algorithm than Logic and Apple loops, ( f**king hate that idiotic name BTW! sounds like a breakfast cereal!!) ???

I don't think Apple loops are the best solution to stretch a complete track.

I haven't had any problems with audio performance that I've noticed, what do you mean by this?

Maximum track count in Logic is noticeably worse than in SX or on PCs.

[machinesworking]

OK with the first part, I'm not convinced that SX has a better timestretching algorithm than Logic and Apple loops, ( f**king hate that idiotic name BTW! sounds like a breakfast cereal!!) ???

I don't think Apple loops are the best solution to stretch a complete track.

I haven't had any problems with audio performance that I've noticed, what do you mean by this?

Maximum track count in Logic is noticeably worse than in SX or on PCs.

OK I can't make any comparisons with AL's VS the algorithm SX uses so I'll take your word for it. Tend to just use small audio snips stretched mildly.

not surprised about track count, Digital Performer seriously slaughtered everybody a few years back with track count. I tend to stay around 14 to 25 stereo tracks of audio, and any thing that's gone past that has been bellow 40 tracks, so I wouldn't notice really.

What are the numbers like?

[original flipper]

HI

I almost went G5 when I was having difficulty sourcing a PC DAW that suited my needs recently (actually took delivery of a dual Xeon today!), I am an ex Logic PC user and changing to SX has been very difficult - to me this is the central issue, let's be honest you can argue the toss over the RAW power that a G5 v PC will give you, but top spec machines will give you plenty of power irrelative of platform.

I think the quirkiness of swithching between a Mac/PC can be quite awkward (I have used Mac's at work and found them 'Different' - for want of a better word), beyond that changing host can be a nightmare - I agree with a previous post; if you can find someone experienced in using a host that you intend switching, you will learn more in a day with them than a couple of months stumbling around working it out for yourself.

I would like to trhink that the days of host/platform bashing (mainly through ignorance) are gone and people can see the advantages/disadvantages that choice/preferance brings.

Flipper.

[Sascha Franck]

What are the numbers like?

From what I seem to remember, Logic might start to become quite slower at around 50+ tracks (24bit).
With SX the double amount seems to be no problem (same with Logic 5.5.1 on my Windows DAW).
Still haven't done any scientific tests as for now I'm only using Macs at the university (hm, I just have one at home with me, should perhaps do a test later on).
As said before, it probably doesn't matter a lot in case you're not doing all those gigantomanic pop choire doublings and the likes. But in case you are, it might be a limitation. And yeah, I do know Sargeant Pepper's was recorded on a 4-track (some clever argument people allways try to bring into this discussion) - but that's beyond the point. It really makes you wonder that Apples top of the line computer along with the (make it "their") top of the line audio sequencer is easily excelled by almost any mediocre PC. In terms of audio track count that is.
Regarding plugin performance I'd have to agree that LogicPro is one of the most efficiently coded programs around. I guess anybody would agree that SpaceDesigner is a really good sounding reverb - running up to 50 of them certainly isn't something all computers would be capable of. The same goes for around 1000 ES2 voices (don't remember the exact figures, maybe it were even more but it's enormous!).

Bottomline: In case you're not into audio track madness but want a more or less stable program (well, the uni's Macs aren't updated to L7 yet, so I can only speak for L6 - which happened to be fairly stable so far) with quite more than average performance figures (at least considering the internal plugins), a G5 DP along with L7 certainly is something worth to think of.

I'd second that I wouldn't jump straight into L7.zero, there's been more complaints about it than I've ever seen before with any new version number (ok, 4.0 wasn't all that great either). Especially considering third party plugins there seem to be quite some difficulties with a lot of them (even with those working fine under L6).

Just out of interest, one should do some comparison chart, such as "4000 bucks for a G5DP and Logic7 vs. XYZ bucks for a PC, SX and a number of equally good plugins".
Assuming one doesn't have a lot of plugins allready, further assuming one would actually like to have some of those L7 plugins (or similar ones) sooner or later, I could very well imagine that the cost for some SX-equipped PC with a bunch of plugins wouldn't be much less than those 4000 bucks. You would at least need something such as Komplete 2, some effect suite such as Voxengo's and maybe some special effects such as PSP Nitro or the likes to come close.
A proper PC (somewhat equaling a G5DP) including SX 3 can't be had for much less than 2000 either (ok, maybe 1700 - I'm talking Euros here, btw.).

Anyways, I really think the price/performance tag for Logic7 (assuming it'll finally run well) is close to being unbeatable.
Still, if I were a PC user with good SX experiences, I'd most likely stay away from Macs though.