The ultimate vst sequencer plugin?

[pdxindy]

My favorite software step sequencer is the one in Logic Pro. I've not found a VST sequencer that is as fast and useful. There are various vst step sequencers that are super powerful, but the workflow is not inspiring.

[WatchTheGuitar]

Logic is absolutely useless for me, utterly uninspiring and pointless.
I have a Windows machine.

[Gadget Fiend]

A number of DAW piano rolls don’t have facility to use note probabilities, change direction, quantise to a scale etc.

I think it's cool that the OP wants to do more generative music (it that's the right term). But most standard DAWs were designed to record music that the songwriter or composer intended to play. Hence, there are almost no probabilistic functions, options to reverse the notes in a pattern, etc. These DAW developers assume that what you play in (or input via their step sequencer) is what you want (and if not, you re-record / re-input the part).

[mholloway]

There ain't that many on the market cause they're redundant. What additional feature does a sequencer have over a piano roll?
I would think a piano roll has more features.

A number of DAW piano rolls don’t have facility to use note probabilities, change direction, quantise to a scale etc.

+ most don't have the facility to use note-repeats / ratchets, or step-input recording modes...there, Kinh, that's now 6 features of a step sequencer that a Piano Roll lacks, and we're just getting started.

It's always the folks who have no experience with / no actual idea of what step sequencers are who like to make posts assserting that Piano Rolls are exactly the same or better than them.

Logic Pro and Studio One both added comprehensive step-sequencer functionally within the last few years, and guess what, it's not because their devs though it'd be cool to add totally "redundant" tools that offered nothing beyond their existing Piano Rolls...

Try one. They are loads of fun and encourage compositional approaches that are totally different than standard MIDI recording / editing, particularly when used in step-input record mode.

[AnX]

Any DAW

[Gadget Fiend]

There ain't that many on the market cause they're redundant. What additional feature does a sequencer have over a piano roll?
I would think a piano roll has more features.

Piano rolls (at least the ones in Cubase, Logic, and Studio One) do have as many if not more musically useful features than most monophonic step sequencers. Unless we're talking about functions for avante-garde composers, a piano roll does practically everything that a songwriter would need. For instance, it's a lot easier in a piano roll display to shorten or lengthen a note length than in a fixed grid step sequencer. And then there are usually piano roll options to "delete note overlaps" (either monophonically or polyphonically) that I've never seen in a step sequencer.

Having said that, I would still like to see Steinberg add a dedicated step sequencer to Cubase along with an updated arpeggiator. But they would both need to be easy to use. Steinberg got itself into its current mess by adding too many features.

[WatchTheGuitar]

Piano rolls (at least the ones in Cubase, Logic, and Studio One) do have as many if not more musically useful features

Christ on a Bike, people still think like this? Did you skip the last century?

[Gadget Fiend]

Piano rolls (at least the ones in Cubase, Logic, and Studio One) do have as many if not more musically useful features

Christ on a Bike, people still think like this? Did you skip the last century?

Ok, down boy. Name just one mainstream, musically useful thing you can accomplish with a step sequencer that you can't do just as easily with a piano roll. The only thing I can think of is that for parts you are unable to play due to poor technique, a step sequencer allows you to enter notes via the step input of your sequencer.

You either have really non-standard ways of working or you're a hack who can't play.

[WatchTheGuitar]

Piano rolls (at least the ones in Cubase, Logic, and Studio One) do have as many if not more musically useful features

Christ on a Bike, people still think like this? Did you skip the last century?

Ok, down boy. Name just one mainstream, musically useful thing you can accomplish with a step sequencer that you can't do just as easily with a piano roll. The only thing I can think of is that for parts you are unable to play due to poor technique, a step sequencer allows you to enter notes via the step input of your sequencer.

You either have really non-standard ways of working or you're a hack who can't play.

There's not a simple way to compress a hundred years of musical experimentation like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music
into a sentence so I think I'll let you win and agree that a piano roll is perfect for mainstream needs.
Where we differ I imagine is that I don't think intentionality begins and ends with the intention of putting exact notes on a score, an artist, musician, whoever can intend to create a piece with certain degrees of random fuzziness incorporated which can unravel some happy accidents and become part of a more statically defined piece afterwards. Being snobby about who can physically play a piece is real old school music bullshit. What about someone who loses motor skills, are they unable to write music any more?

Also, step sequencers aren't just used for notes, they can also affect MIDI CCs and automate for example a filter's resonance increasing or cutoff decreasing over time .

[Gadget Fiend]

There's not a simple way to compress a hundred years of musical experimentation like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleatoric_music
into a sentence so I think I'll let you win and agree that a piano roll is perfect for mainstream needs.
Where we differ I imagine is that I don't think intentionality begins and ends with the intention of putting exact notes on a score, an artist, musician, whoever can intend to create a piece with certain degrees of random fuzziness incorporated which can unravel some happy accidents and become part of a more statically defined piece afterwards. Being snobby about who can physically play a piece is real old school music bullshit. What about someone who loses motor skills, are they unable to write music any more?

Also, step sequencers aren't just used for notes, they can also affect MIDI CCs and automate for example a filter's resonance increasing or cutoff decreasing over time .

Oh, for christ's sake, it's not being "snobby" to push back against your ludicrous idea that DAW developers should focus on supporting people who have lost motor skills (as sad as that may be).

Unless you are one of these unfortunate people, then learn to play f-ing keyboards. Don't expect DAW developers to coddle you and introduce features that wouldn't be necessary except for your lack of discipline.

Regarding your desire to see more elements of "random fuzziness" in DAWs, what does this have to do with implementing step sequencers in those DAWs? You can add the same sort of randomization functions to an existing piano roll editor.

Also, every piano roll editor that I am aware of includes at least one controller lane for editing MIDI CCs and not just notes.

[WatchTheGuitar]

Oh, for christ's sake, it's not being "snobby" to push back against your ludicrous idea that DAW developers should focus on supporting people who have lost motor skills (as sad as that may be).

This is a pointless discussion, you're right, enjoy the glow.

[gentleclockdivider]

There ain't that many on the market cause they're redundant. What additional feature does a sequencer have over a piano roll?
I would think a piano roll has more features.

Well for starters what about steptime duration
This basically means hold that step for x amounts of time before proceeding to the next step
In a regular DAW you would be controlling the timeline cursor to get the same effect ...oh wait you can't do that in daw
Let's give another one, advances to the next step , only when this sequencer line receives a gate input from another sequencer ( like the trig out on a tr808 would advance the tb303 to the next step )
And lot's of other stuff that can't be done in a regular daw.
Back to you charles

[Gadget Fiend]

Well for starters what about steptime duration
This basically means hold that step for x amounts of time before proceeding to the next step
In a regular DAW you would be controlling the timeline cursor to get the same effect ...oh wait you can't do that in daw
Let's give another one, advances to the next step , only when this sequencer line receives a gate input from another sequencer ( like the trig out on a tr808 would advance the tb303 to the next step )
And lot's of other stuff that can't be done in a regular daw.
Back to you charles

But if you actually know how to play, what use are these features? You just play in your part and then tidy it up if necessary in the piano roll editor. If you actually want to compose without knowing how to play keyboards, then use the "Score View" that is available in the better DAWs (Logic, Cubase, Studio One) and draw your notes on the staves.

I just think there are DAWs for musicians and non-musicians, or at least DAWs for keyboardists and non-keyboardists. I find it disheartening that classic DAWs like Logic have cluttered up their feature set by adding "clip launchers" and other DJ tools. Apple is just pandering to what they hope will be a wider "EDM" user base.

[dave dove]

i like step sequencers
i don't like piano rolls
i don't read music
or play keyboards
step sequencers can be fun
steps sequencers can be creative tools
step sequencing is art...
too
dave

[vurt]

Well for starters what about steptime duration
This basically means hold that step for x amounts of time before proceeding to the next step
In a regular DAW you would be controlling the timeline cursor to get the same effect ...oh wait you can't do that in daw
Let's give another one, advances to the next step , only when this sequencer line receives a gate input from another sequencer ( like the trig out on a tr808 would advance the tb303 to the next step )
And lot's of other stuff that can't be done in a regular daw.
Back to you charles

But if you actually know how to play, what use are these features? You just play in your part and then tidy it up if necessary in the piano roll editor. If you actually want to compose without knowing how to play keyboards, then use the "Score View" that is available in the better DAWs (Logic, Cubase, Studio One) and draw your notes on the staves.

I just think there are DAWs for musicians and non-musicians, or at least DAWs for keyboardists and non-keyboardists. I find it disheartening that classic DAWs like Logic have cluttered up their feature set by adding "clip launchers" and other DJ tools. Apple is just pandering to what they hope will be a wider "EDM" user base.

you lack imagination.